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Thread: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

  1. #2781

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by electricmastro View Post
    And personally to me, if we really wanted to try to be respectful all the way by that way of thought, then at that point it would point towards having to refer to Yamato as "Oden"
    It was already established that he has no issue whatsoever being called Yamato in Ch. 994.

  2. #2782

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by electricmastro View Post
    I'm confident in being respectful in also referring to Yamato as a she without fear coming off as insulting or denigrating as you suggested.
    If Yamato was an actual person, I'd absolutely call him Oden if that's what he wanted. On a manga forum we don't mostly for clarity... and because he's actually gone by Yamato 99% of the time, and only really declared himself to BE Oden for quick gags. But for the most part he's gone by his name, and even agreed that Luffy is more Oden than he is.

    If Yamato says "I want to be boiled alive in oil", yes at that point we stage an intervention.

    I haven't seen any signs of him suffering when he's being like Oden, he mostly seems to be enjoying it. And his cosplay is terrible, the outfit doesn't match at all and he hasn't done his hair the same or put on fake sideburns, he isn't trying THAT hard to be *exactly* Oden.

    The degree he's living AS Oden has shifted a bit depending on if it helps a gag, but he's not cosplaying the whole time. Things like "I want to leave Momo behind so I can go fight with Luffy" are entirely Yamato decisions, not "what would Oden do." He's already doing what Yamato wants to do... guided by the spirit of what Oden would do. He's not decided to repeat Oden's life exactly note for note.


    You're vastly exaggerating what Yamato has actually shown and done in order to transform his choices of personal expression into a strawman argument where it's nothing but a destructive mental illness. You are ALSO insisting that Kiku has made a "lifestyle choice". And yes, both of those things ARE insulting and denigrating.

    Maybe at the end of the arc Yamato completely drops the "live like Oden, live like a man" bit, maybe he doesn't. But until he does, if he does, respect what he currently wants.

    Actual real life trans people are allowed to change their minds later about certain things as their lives change and they grow. Doesn't make their feelings at the time any less valid. One of my friends had a long process where they though they were bi, then gay, then transitioned to trans, but that was a process to figure out and they didn't get there until their late 30's and had to adjust along the way. Meanwhile, my very best friend, for over two decades, knew they were trans from a very, very early age (around 5 or so) and started transitioning as soon as they were able after high school. It's different for everyone and not a standard process.
    Last edited by Robby; September 1st, 2021 at 10:24 PM.
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  3. #2783

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Stop referring to being 'trans' as a 'lifestyle choice'. It is not.
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  4. #2784

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by JulieYBM View Post
    Stop referring to being 'trans' as a 'lifestyle choice'. It is not.
    With Yamato and Yamato alone it IS sticky, because even now we're not sure how much of it is
    "Wants to be Oden and so okay, a man"
    and how much of it is
    "wants to live like a man, like Oden!"

    and that's why its been so rough this whole year. It might, MIGHT be a choice in his particular case, where he chooses differently at the end of the arc, which is why we aren't really policing the matter.

    But regardless, even if in this one particular weird case, it *is* a choice on Yamato's part, he still wants to be a man *right now* so that's all that should mamtter.

    (And of course, there is also imagining you're someone else of a different gender because your still an egg and just don't realize that about yourself yet... So it's also entirely possible Yamato drops the "Oden" shtick but realizes he still like the "man" part.)

    Given *how long* Yamato has been doing this for, that seems unlikely to me this is just a passing fad for him, but I can't make that call definitively.

    Yamato's a tough case.

    But saying Kiku is making a "lifestyle choice" is just wrong.
    Last edited by Robby; September 1st, 2021 at 10:22 PM.
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  5. #2785
    Yonkou allied force evilvanessafan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    *MOD POST*

    Once again folks, the forum's current policy is you can call Yamato he, she, Oden, whatever seem to you to be the right judgement call

    Yamato wants to go by "he", so that's what I use. If that changes down the road and he drops both the Oden and the "I want to be a man" thing, then it changes. But in the meantime, until that happens, IF that happens, call them what they want to be called.

    Even if that doesn't make sense to you for a fictional character
    unless i am understanding you wrong, you are contradicting yourself........
    you tell us we can call Yamato what we want regarding he/she/Oden

    but then go on about how we NEED to call Yamato a HE/HIM (because that's what the character refers to themself as)
    even if that does not make sense to us for a fictional character

    ??????????????????

  6. #2786

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by evilvanessafan View Post
    ??????????????????
    You left out the middle. And most of the end.

    There's official statement, and then there's a multi line gap, and then, the part that starts with "personally" is my personal stance.


    Please don't selectively edit things, remove words, and add emphasis to try and take them out of context to create drama and outrage.
    Last edited by Robby; September 1st, 2021 at 11:09 PM.
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  7. #2787

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Cis people don't want to be genders other than the one they were assigned at birth. Yamato can be a man while looking up to another man.
    She/Her
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  8. #2788

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    But saying Kiku is making a "lifestyle choice" is just wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by JulieYBM View Post
    Stop referring to being 'trans' as a 'lifestyle choice'. It is not.
    Alright, could you please tell me how would you word it then?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    You're vastly exaggerating what Yamato has actually shown and done in order to transform his choices of personal expression into a strawman argument where it's nothing but a destructive mental illness.
    Never said what Yamato was going through was a "destructive mental illness." You know, I could just as easily accuse you of being one who's being extremely insulting and denigrating towards human beings who are mentally ill for what you're saying, but I won't, because I'm not that sort of person and would rather move on and not derail this thread if there's nothing left meaningful to say beyond making accusations and displaying what some could possibly say is passive aggressiveness. At any rate, hope you take care.
    Last edited by electricmastro; September 1st, 2021 at 11:09 PM.

  9. #2789

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by electricmastro View Post
    Alright, could you please tell me how would you word it then?
    "I respect Kiku choosing to live and happily embrace her own gender lifestyle choice of being a woman"

    can instead just be
    "I respect Kiku choosing to live and happily embrace her life as a woman."

    The same way you would have for Nami or Rebecca or Shirahoshi.

    No lifestyle, no choice, just is what it is.
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  10. #2790

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    The same way you would have for Nami or Rebecca or Shirahoshi.
    Ah, so Kiku is the same as Nami, Rebecca, and Shirahoshi then? In the case, then did Nami, Rebecca, and Shirahoshi say "woman at heart." too?

  11. #2791

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by electricmastro View Post
    Ah, so Kiku is the same as Nami, Rebecca, and Shirahoshi then?
    Yes, exactly, now you're getting it.

    If so, then did Nami, Rebecca, and Shirahoshi say "woman at heart." too?
    Sigh. I had replied to you and was happy for one second, because I thought for one moment that you were being genuiine and getting it and had maybe learned something. And then I saw this then saw this edit.

    Now you're back to being inconsiderate and rude and making Kiku an "other" because you feel the need to be, once again, insulting and denigrating,
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  12. #2792

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    Now you're back to being inconsiderate and rude and making Kiku an "other" because you feel the need to be, once again, insulting and denigrating,

    Wow. Just wow at managing to turn my attempt to respect Kiku and understand her more and twisting it like that into something "insulting and denigrating."


    I suppose that's the time to be moving on then.


    Quote Originally Posted by Monquito View Post
    So.. PayPay and Ulti's dad was a pirate who died long ago.


    That's interesting.

    Probably had quite the rough upbringing then on top of that by seeing all of Kaido's violence and tyranny. Makes me wonder exactly what kind of childhoods they had at that point.

  13. #2793

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    I don't remember Onimaru leaving behind any clothing when he turned back to his base form. I wonder if that form comes with the mala, sandals and other clothing. That's 7 Mythical DF now and I really need to see more hybrid forms. Yamato and Kaido are the only ones to show a clear hybrid form. I wish Marco and Orochi could show their hybrid forms as well. Can't even tell if Sengoku is in hybrid form or not.

  14. #2794

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by electricmastro View Post
    Wow. Just wow at managing to turn my attempt to respect Kiku and understand her more and twisting it like that into something "insulting and denigrating."
    "Treat her like any other woman."

    That's it. That's ALL. That's the ENTIRE thing you need to take away from it. And you HAD it. That was perfect.


    And then, you had to do the follow up. "If so, then did Nami, Rebecca, and Shirahoshi say "woman at heart." too?

    In that context, combined with your earlier statements, what you are saying is "So did all the other ACTUAL women have to clarify that they're women?"

    You're pulling up exceptions, trying to add rules to it, to make it a joke. THAT'S why it's insulting.

    I'm trying to take at face value that you're being sincere about wanting to understand better and be more respectful. But if that's the case, then you need to understand your phrasing and word choices ARE in fact adding to the problem.

    I apologize if I got a bit terse, I've been dealing with this literally ALL day, and its 3 AM, and I am worn out. If you are in fact being genuine about wanting to do better, we can try discussing this again some other time when everyone is a little less frazzed out.


    In the meantime. "Treat her like any other woman." That's it.
    Last edited by Robby; September 2nd, 2021 at 12:02 AM.
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  15. #2795

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by electricmastro View Post
    Ah, so Kiku is the same as Nami, Rebecca, and Shirahoshi then? In the case, then did Nami, Rebecca, and Shirahoshi say "woman at heart." too?
    As far as you're concerned, they might as well be the same. The difference between a woman and a trans woman (or a man and a trans man) is something that's really only relevant to that person's intimate partners and their doctor. And mate, you're not going to be an intimate partner to any of these anime characters.

    The "at heart" distinction is, by my understanding, a bit of Japanese queer community terminology. It's the equivalent of saying 'trans woman', or 'female (AMAB*),' a distinction that may appear on some official documents but would be invasive to know about most people and rude to bring up in every reference to them. It's assumed that the other women's heart already match the bodies they were born into unless stated otherwise. The fact that Kiku is "female at heart" or however you want to phrase it is a cool bit her backstory to know as a fan (and because she's a fictional character you get to know things like that without it being an invasion of privacy) but doesn't change anything practical or have relevancy in the present

    *Assigned Male at Birth
    Last edited by Captain M; September 2nd, 2021 at 04:19 PM.

  16. #2796

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by Cockycent View Post
    I don't remember Onimaru leaving behind any clothing when he turned back to his base form. I wonder if that form comes with the mala, sandals and other clothing. That's 7 Mythical DF now and I really need to see more hybrid forms. Yamato and Kaido are the only ones to show a clear hybrid form. I wish Marco and Orochi could show their hybrid forms as well. Can't even tell if Sengoku is in hybrid form or not.
    Of course we can't really question the clothing since it had to be there, since Oda can't draw naked people in a shonen manga for 15 year olds. lol

  17. #2797
    Omne ignotum pro magnifico Zik's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    [
    Quote Originally Posted by Vongola_Boss_XI View Post
    Thanks! We'll see how it turns out of course when the curtains close on Wano.
    I don't know when you came up with it or if it was an ongoing idea but if brought up early I would've considered the idea of Yamato dropping the Oden guise in a serious manner a bit more since that has clear story connections.

    As opposed to fans sort of just reaching in the air that Yamato's character arc must involve her "realizing she must become her true self" or other made up stuff about how she can't be strawhat while claiming to be someone else.a pirate who died long ago.

    QUOTE=Monquito;4147002]So.. PayPay and Ulti's dad was....[/QUOTE]
    Oda should really just connect all of the orphaned characters whose parents were pirates under one family tree.

    Make Ulti and Paypay surprise half-siblings of Franky.
    Last edited by Zik; September 2nd, 2021 at 10:22 AM.
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  18. #2798

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    It's just one very 'active' pirate who wasn't fit to be a parent at all

  19. #2799

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Mock-up wanted posters for the new bounties:


  20. #2800

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    I wonder if Robin and Franky will both get a bounty around 500.000.000 for defeating Black Maria and Sasaki.
    I'm sure CP0 is making notes of all the battles.

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