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Thread: European Politics Thread

  1. #1
    Meow! :) Ekila's Avatar
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    Default European Politics Thread

    There is one for America, so why not have one for Europe?

    Plus, I would love to learn more about what's going in Europe besides the United States.


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  2. #2
    Karaage-san, Aishiteru! AfroSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: European Politics Thread

    Should we take the arabic spam as a metaphor for what's going on in europe?
    -_- o_o O_O ...Agree to disagree sounds about right. Holy moly.
    I'm such a bad person

  3. #3
    Dog does not approve. onemoment's Avatar
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    Default Re: European Politics Thread

    Oh, hey, gamal66! Welcome to the site! Hope you enjoy your stay!

  4. #4
    Meow! :) Ekila's Avatar
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    Default Re: European Politics Thread

    A spambot...... -_-


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  5. #5

    Default Re: European Politics Thread

    USA politics is a giant tire fire that blots out the sun with a Pilar of smoke.

    Even amid brexit and the independence movements, Europe is not that dramatic. Right now.
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  6. #6

    Default Re: European Politics Thread

    All the (ultra-)right-wing movements trying their best to assert independence from *the establishment* while not looking like the butt monkeys flying out of the Trump Administration.

  7. #7
    Cutter Chrior's Avatar
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    Default Re: European Politics Thread

    Alright, let's get to it. I think Spain should have new general elections and Catalonia should have new elections too. The current governments on either side are made up of idiots who do not seem capable of solving anything.
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn. (Socrates (Σωκράτης) method to enlighten people, ca. 500 BC)

  8. #8
    Don't know what to say... Monquito's Avatar
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    Default Re: European Politics Thread

    I'm acutally impressed Spain is a topic nowadays, it's been like 2 centuries without any protagonism at all.








  9. #9

    Default Re: European Politics Thread

    If it weren't for the looming threat of Podemos always lurking in the shadows with their "totally not venezuelan socialism" I'd be clamoring for elections as well.

    The annoying thing is that either the PP (right wing, the PM's party) has drilled the connection so much that it lost all meaning, or people are tired enough to not care and their anti establishment wishes will be granted at any cost.
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  10. #10
    Cutter Chrior's Avatar
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    Default Re: European Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by maxterdexter View Post
    If it weren't for the looming threat of Podemos always lurking in the shadows with their "totally not venezuelan socialism" I'd be clamoring for elections as well.

    The annoying thing is that either the PP (right wing, the PM's party) has drilled the connection so much that it lost all meaning, or people are tired enough to not care and their anti establishment wishes will be granted at any cost.
    We also have far left parties here (actually we have a sort of stalinist party which does pretty great in every single election) and they support the current centre-left government. It's working out pretty great, since the socialists can implement their centre left policies without danger of being shot down by the neoliberals and the far left helps the workers unions get back on the negotiation tables with the government, thereby improving worker's wages and rights. Basically we're back to social-democracy after years of neoliberal business-friendly policies and devastation of the welfare state and living standards. While the Podemos-style parties are not strong enough to outright start nationalizing stuff and voting us out of the EU, for example, they can influence the PS to be more worker-friendly instead of EU-subservient. I think a similar arrangement would suit Spain just fine at a time like this. Your economy is strong and steady () and if your government was more prone to spending, maybe unemployment would actually go down. It's scary how bad it is in some places. My brother lives in Linares (Jaen), where it is close to 50 %, or something like that.

    And since it seems both Podemos and PSOE are favourable to negotiations with the Generalitat, instead of giving them the middle finger and sending police to Catalunya, maybe this would calm things down and lead to a peaceful transition to a new status quo, either with an independent state or integrated in Spain with a new status.
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn. (Socrates (Σωκράτης) method to enlighten people, ca. 500 BC)

  11. #11

    Default Re: European Politics Thread

    I'm no expert. But yeah, Linares is not somewhere where anyone wants to be.

    The mentality that I've seen is a "winer takes all", bipartidism is too strong still, with four parties of stupid right, " I say center but actually right ", " I say left but actually center" and "I say left but actually bumfuck"

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Also, I think that the last best bet for Catalunya was shut down by the PSOE the last time they had majority.
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  12. #12
    Noseless and Handless akagami7's Avatar
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    Default Re: European Politics Thread

    I think new elections could just result into another tie with no agreements reached to form a government and the pp being the acting government for another year.


  13. #13

    Default Re: European Politics Thread

    There is that as well. There is very little motivation from Madrid to change things.

    Hell, the company exodus from Catalunya is a boon for the nearby regions.
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  14. #14
    Meow! :) Ekila's Avatar
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    Default Re: European Politics Thread

    Could someone go more into detail about the elections in Spain? Like the different candidates, and who is the best one, etc.? -curious about the situation there-


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  15. #15
    Discovered Stowaway Sparsebeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: European Politics Thread

    As someone who lives in a place with a history of separatism (Québec, Canada), I think the best option for Spain would be to allow a real referendum to be held, with both camps (Yes and No) getting the chance to say their piece. Sure, it "could" mean seccession, but that is what the right of auto-determination of people means...

    Still, most likely the independentists would lose and their legitimacy would take a hit. After all, separatism is largly built on a perception of unfairness and fear. Getting told you are but peon that can't decide your own fate tends to exacerbate that.

    Plus, referendums tend to remove the violent option from the table on the medium term. I mean, we even had a terrorist group that was somewhat popular (FLQ), but after two lost referendum (1980 and 1995), I can't see that happening again.

    Sure there is still talk of separatism in Québec, but the approval for it keeps going down and frankly, the separatist parties are dying a slow death (kept alive only by the incompetence of other parties) and when they win election, it's because they say there won't be a referendum in the next term...

  16. #16
    Cutter Chrior's Avatar
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    Default Re: European Politics Thread

    I have no idea why it's so hard to let people have a say in if they want to belong to your country or not. Do some people take it as an insult or something? Honestly, I don't think this problem would ever happen in Portugal. I actually think most people would not give 2 shits if some part of the country wants to be out. That part would most likely be smaller and weaker, so who cares. "The only ones needed are those who are here" is a common saying.
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn. (Socrates (Σωκράτης) method to enlighten people, ca. 500 BC)

  17. #17

    Default Re: European Politics Thread

    The catalan front is a mistery to me.

    The spanish front is more understandable, with:

    - PP (right-er party) as current majority and holder of the PM,
    - then the PSOE (soft left) with the dude that's making waves right now, as he's the one who's playing with the "Let's change the constitution" speech, and should be able to pull the discontent that the catalunya issue awoke in the moderate population. What these changes might bring, is too soon to tell.
    - Then podemos, my personal nemesii, leftest
    - Finaly Ciudadanos, who seemed more centrist, but haven't done or shown anything that makes them just "The PP painted orange"
    Beyond this is the bunch of less than 10% parties that I know nothing about, except the list of "Venezuelan crisis deniers" that I keep.

    Rajoy seemed to be planing on just sweeping the issue away, changing up the current goverment on catalunya, and just try to act with business as usual, boosted by the fact that independentism and just "let's do business" or turism doesn't mix, that caused all but one of the top tax contributors on the region to change their location, and there was a sharp decline on turism and hotel reserves, so the region will end weaker after the fact.

    The Catalan goverment is already in check, if they declare the independence, the spanish goverment will just take away their competences, under the constitution, and handle the region indefinitely, if they go back on it then the independentist movement will crack, splitting it into different factions.

    Doing a proper independence referendum should be the most logical option, but I doubt that Madrid will take the chance, this october's with around 42% of the people, (I think a little less than 3million) they claim to have won with 90%. That's between the ilegality of the vote, the fear of represion, the bolstering after represion, the fact that many of the measures to avoid voting twice were absent because the central census didn't provide it, and that some of the electors that through data alone would prove "problematic" (as in people from other regions or countries that can vote, but were likely to vote no) weren't even notified or invited.

    I have no idea what's the usual number of voters that actually go to vote, but my boss that is more politicaly savy than me claims that the last referendum the separatist option lost with around the same % that they got now, and he keept reminding me that (illogically) the catalan parlament independentist sector wasn't the majority when they passed the laws that would grant them independence. Haven't factchecked that one, but it doesn't match up with the negative from Madrid to do the referendum.
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  18. #18

    Default Re: European Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrior View Post
    I have no idea why it's so hard to let people have a say in if they want to belong to your country or not. Do some people take it as an insult or something? Honestly, I don't think this problem would ever happen in Portugal. I actually think most people would not give 2 shits if some part of the country wants to be out. That part would most likely be smaller and weaker, so who cares. "The only ones needed are those who are here" is a common saying.
    The biggest problem with things like this is how incredibly violent the history of them tends to be. Because it's very very rare that you have so neat a situation that enough of the population is on board for the minority against it to not be a problem, among other usual issues.

    I was going to say something about how it only seems so simple and non-violent in these cases because Spain and Canada are first world democracies? But then Northern Ireland kind of proves even that doesn't necessitate anything.

  19. #19

    Default Re: European Politics Thread

    Well, there's the fact that spain had almost all the world and lost almost all of it by 100 years ago, that they fought tooth and nail to keep Basque Country in check, and that Catalunya is the richest region, that the independentist side is happy to tell you that if they built the state EXACTLY as they plan, and no extra expenses like having an army, airports, social security, etc were to crop up, they (I should say we?) would have one of the top 10 economies of the EU.

    They don't like to talk about our independence wars. They call them "the secesion wars".

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey King View Post
    The biggest problem with things like this is how incredibly violent the history of them tends to be. Because it's very very rare that you have so neat a situation that enough of the population is on board for the minority against it to not be a problem, among other usual issues.

    I was going to say something about how it only seems so simple and non-violent in these cases because Spain and Canada are first world democracies? But then Northern Ireland kind of proves even that doesn't necessitate anything.
    The irony is that no one born here believes that Spain is a first world country. Or are an actual democracy.
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  20. #20
    Discovered Stowaway Sparsebeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: European Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by maxterdexter View Post
    The Catalan goverment is already in check, if they declare the independence, the spanish goverment will just take away their competences, under the constitution, and handle the region indefinitely [...]
    That would be so dumb, I can't even fathom...

    First, it would totally legitimise violence, hell would I be a catalan I would probaly revolt.

    Second, even I there was no violence, there are tons of way to do non-violent resistence (for exemple, stop paying taxes or indefinite strike).

    Third, it would certainly raise the support for separatism, I mean even moderates would feel insulted...

    Frankly, to an external observer, Spain looks like Turkey or China, ready to go to civil war or take political prisonners (cause that is what it would be if they arrest politicians or policemen for secessionism) just in order to keep a region under it's boot.

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