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Thread: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

  1. #4901
    Chocolate or raisins? Coookie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    I was about to say, his speech about his happy place and his battle-crazed Saiyan's blood paired with the imagery was very reminiscent of his first fight against Goku. I kinda expected him to become a miniature God-Oozaru

  2. #4902

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    I don't care much about another new transformation, but I like the principles at play here.

    Granolah is basically becoming Saiyan saga Vegeta.

    And while Vegeta is embracing the Saiyan Instinct, it's done in a way where his growth as a character is incorporated in it.

    Skill, experience and hard work overcome plain strength. I'm kind of tired of Vegeta, but I think this is at least done well.

  3. #4903
    The Age of Smiles Devil G.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly



    There's a new movie in the works.

  4. #4904

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    Apparently, Toriyama is more involved in this film than the previous 3 Super films — in which he did the whole story, entire script, and character designs.

    Also, I appreciate the recolors for Piccolo and Kuririn!

    EDIT: Timeskip too! Pan is in Kindergarten… so this takes place around 5 years after Super?
    Last edited by gyuukarubi; July 23rd, 2021 at 10:49 AM.

  5. #4905

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    Well, turns out it's CG.

    But looking at the teaser, it also feels more like the one really good-looking 3D special One Piece got rather than the typical much more ugly CG you usually see.

    Looking at the teaser, the only thing that is wierd to me is the frame-skipping in the movement, which is the biggest issue I usually have with anime CG.

    But what I like the most is that it looks to be an original story. No rehashing. We saw Piccolo, Krillin, a slightly older Pan and a new design in the stream that just happened.

    The name is Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero which is that fun redundancy trend DB seems to be having (Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan), but also seems to be calling back to the Buu Saga and Saiyaman stuff which I think was really fun.

    The presenters on stream even seemed to have fun with the title and how it sounds. It sounds like Toriyama just having fun and I feel like DB taking a break from the Saiyans a bit.

    The new guys even looks like foils to Saiyaman.

  6. #4906

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    Piccolo finally took Nail's advice and built that house.

  7. #4907

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    I like to think Piccolo bought a fridge just so he could have a place to put the drawings Pan makes for him.
    Complicating things since 2009.

  8. #4908

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    I have so many questions about Piccolo’s house. Does he own the land or pay property taxes? What’s the address? Who’s sending him mail?

    Toriyama giving mundane qualities to his characters is one of the best things he could have done. Son Goku is a shitty farmer, Kuririn is a policeman, and Junior Demon King Piccolo has a mailbox.

  9. #4909

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    Piccolo: Bills...bills...bills...Meditating In The Wilderness Aficionado Magazine...

  10. #4910

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    New DBS chapter:

    It's funny to me how Vegeta provoking Granolah like he did with Cabba actually lead him to improve. The other explanation here could also be that Vegeta was being overwhelmed by the GoD power, but I lean towards the former because that's the more consistent narrative here.

    Also the spoiler outrage this time around was extra kind of funny/dumb because people freaked out over three out of context pages a day before the chapter was out and in context the entire thing had a pretty different meaning to it.

    Even Vegeta's English VA Chris Sabat did a wierd thing and reacted to unofficial leaks with no context.

    I thought this chapter was okay overall. Once again, I'm kind of tired of Vegeta. Right now I find pretty much anyone else more engaging. But what's been done with him here is alright.

  11. #4911

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    Glad to see Vegeta lose. Now that the fighting is over I'm going to be very interested in seeing where the plot goes next. Hopefully a few drama chapters now!
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  12. #4912
    Chocolate or raisins? Coookie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    I don't think the fight is over, Vegeta hasn't even lost his Ultra Ego yet

  13. #4913

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    Quote Originally Posted by Coookie View Post
    I don't think the fight is over, Vegeta hasn't even lost his Ultra Ego yet
    This sounds really funny in the most straight-forward sense, but apparently the implication of the name of the form "wagamama no gokui" is "mastery of selfishness" so the purpose behind it is actually "mastering" his ego.

    It's also apparently "ego" in contrast to the "id" of Ultra Instinct. Is Gohan going to have a Super Ego-inspired power-up, then?

    Id is the instinct, Super Ego is the moral conscience and Ego is the "reason" mediating between them.

  14. #4914

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    I finally got to reading the Dragon Ball manga again and holy crap is the 21st Tenkaichi an improvement not only over the first arc of the manga, but also most of the 'Z portion' stuff.

    I read the first arc and then went over to the Saiyan and Cell arcs because I was curious about them and how they were handled in the manga over the anime. My issue with the Saiyan Saga was that Piccolo's arc was kind of rushed through, with the anime giving it more time to breathe. I liked it still, but the anime made some good calls with it.

    My issue with the Cell arc were a few pretty forgettable sections (The start is good and the end is good, but a bunch of the connective tissue between sections is kind of ehh) and the better fillers – stuff that didn't include long pans and dragging out the story – gave it much-needed fun and levity, but also humanity. I think the reason why the ending actually impacted me as much as it did as a kid was that filler during the 3 days of rest. I liked it because it did a good job with the character arcs, but there were still details that stood out like a sore thumb like Cell being a boring villain or Vegeta just kind of being handed Super Saiyan and in a general sense I didn't like the tone it was growing towards. But it at least fulfilled the major stuff it set up, Buu didn't even do that).

    But I take zero issue with Krillin's arc before and during the 21st tournament. I forgot Krillin wasn't just a jerk, but a jerk with some more to his character because in discussions he's constantly simplified. His growth into Goku's friend was surprisingly gradual and delibrate, not just a sudden switch.

    Eventhough Krillin was a jerk, he was also smart. Rereading that section just really clicked the stuff Super did with him, too. His growth is so rewarding and it has nothing to do with 'winning fights'.

    And for all of the obsession with characters losing I see from many fans, what I also forgot is that Dragon Ball uses loss as a springboard for character growth REALLY often. In these early fights, while characters lose, the ways they have grown despite losing is always emphasised. I think this is the issue with some of the stuff in the later story. It just sort of throws characters aside without even addressing them.

    So while I was reading the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai I thought about how Vegeta lost to Moro in the Moro arc and how despite the loss, he succeeded in putting his pride aside to master a specific technique from a teacher instead of just generally sticking to his usual means/attacks (something he has never done, even if he trained with Goku and Whis) and it's that part that became essential in Moro's defeat. Vegeta 'lost' and was 'put on the side', but this growth became essential in defeating Moro.

    Same goes for all of Gohan's losses in Super. His character arc wasn't about losing or winning. It was about stepping up when needed. And the only reason he has been out of action isn't because he is scared of fighting the enemy or scared of fighting in general, it's because he has other interests that aren't related to fighting.

    Even if he loses or is 'humiliated', when the situation is truly dire, Gohan does step up.

    Rereading this arc made me feel like so many people miss the entire point of the series by constantly complaining about how X character loses. This was always the case, but I forgot *how strong* of an actual in-story point this was to begin with, not just limited to Goku.

    I've also been simultaneously rewatching the anime and I think I finally pinned down how I'd describe the difference between the two.

    I think the Dragon Ball manga makes use of the medium it is in much better than the anime does being an anime. And this only makes sense considering the principles of wanting to keep up with the source material while it was running. It was never going to be consistent and well-paced because of that simple principle.

    I think more creative ways of filler would've gone a long way. But I think it would've taken a pretty crazy effort to keep quality up for a long-runner like this.

    Part of me wants the entire manga to simply be reanimated with much stronger overall vision instead of some truly stand-out episodes here and there, even. Not Kai, just a straight-up remake with like current OP anime's staff or divided into seasons.

    As for Toriyama being super wacky and creative in the early stuff, I think those training chapters were good because of toning down the wackiness (a large portion of which amounted to Roshi being an insufferable creep). To me they were good because they explored the mindset of the characters.

    Krillin and Goku mirror each other in a very solid way. There is this image early Dragon Ball has that it's just non-stop gags and wierd monsters, but that tournament was much more restrained than I remember it being. It was refreshing to not be bombarded with the 10th joke about molesting Bulma and the joke fights were either brief or had more point to them than just 'being wacky'. (The issue I take with Buy arc's 'insanity' – so much of it is mindless humour and mindless fights and I think the start is pretty good at doing both, too, so it stings more.)

    At its core, the story of this arc was about friendly competition and becoming your best self in this really fun and wholesome way. And I think it's stronger than most of the stuff with 'stakes'. Goku was going to be absolutely fine whether he lost to Roshi or not.

    I've always had this inherent excitement about whenever Goku discovers or uses a new technique and these chapters sort of reminded me why, too.

    Because it's also rewarding to see Goku grow as a fighter. So much of the early stuff is literally 'Goku show' already, but I never minded that because I enjoy Goku being Goku. In fact, everyone else in the first arc border on intensely unlikeable, with most of the jokes ending up being about boobs (and hey even young Chichi isn't spared, what a likeable, 'wacky' cast).

    I think the reason why Dragon Ball caught me when I was like 9-10 was that I didn't think much about the perverted jokes and found Goku's subversive naivete really likeable. He stood out among the cast. Little bits like calling coffee soup or pointing out Krillin has no nose or not caring about gender/appearance.

    In a general sense, the story is kind of refreshing to visit for its clarity in script and panelling. I had a bunch of fun.
    Last edited by Kizuchan; September 7th, 2021 at 08:09 AM.

  15. #4915

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    Quote Originally Posted by Kizuchan View Post
    Part of me wants the entire manga to simply be reanimated with much stronger overall vision instead of some truly stand-out episodes here and there, even. Not Kai, just a straight-up remake with like current OP anime's staff or divided into seasons.
    The Path to Power movie is likely the closest we'll ever get. It's sort of a condensed retelling of the first arc and Red Ribbon in a single movie. Last one to be drawn on cels.

    Thee's just no motive for them to budget redoing that part when Z is the popular part... and moving the story forward and introducing *new* stuff is better for merchandise.
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  16. #4916
    Discovered Stowaway MarcelloF's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    I don't need a reanimated version, but a OG Dragon Ball Kai would be really nice.

    Only problem would be that I don't like Colleen Clinkenbeard as young Goku. I prefer Nadolny by quite a bit.

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  17. #4917

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    I know it seems unlikely considering moving forward with the material/maybe doing a Kai version for OG DB seem the more profitable and logical options but it would still be awesome.

    Maybe like decades from now to celebrate the 50 year anniversary or something. Though I doubt that, too.

    I forgot how happy this story made me as a kid. I actually made to before the 22nd tournament in the anime. The preliminaries.

    I also forgot how awesome some of these fights were. Krillin vs Roshi was practically wiped from my memory. But I love that it spoofed the dramatic martial arts/anime trope of attacking your opponent and not actually seeing the attack and then Krillin and Roshi having to explain it.

    Android 8 and Goku becoming friends was the sweetest thing. Ninja Murasaki and Tao are probably the best antagonists to come out of that arc. I like Korin and that Goku refused to take the easy way out there as consistency of learning the value of hard work and of course Bora and Upa and their story, too.

    But the Baba tournament was a little more underwhelming. I completely forgot Puar and Upa got a fight there and that was cool, but everything else besides Goku Vs Gohan, I was pretty ehh about.

    Of course Goku meeting his grandpa is still probably the most heartwarming moment in the story, but even as a kid I didn't see it as much of a mystery. In fact, even back then I don't think I found much of DB surprising. I remember calling everything.

  18. #4918
    Just badass Sano's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    The original reason why I got into the Dragon Ball is due the Z era stuff. But now days I mostly prefer, the Pre Z stuff. My top 2 favorite arcs of the series is from the Pre Z stuff. Which are the Red Ribbon Army and the 23rd World Tournament arcs.

    I know, she was in one panel in the manga, but Colonel Violet was awesome. I really like the filler scenes in the anime with her backstabbing Commander Red, while Goku is on his rampage of the Red Ribbon Army HQ. Also the Red Ribbon Army arc have the introduction of my favorite Dragon Ball villain, Tao Pai Pai.

  19. #4919

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    OG Dragonball doesn't really need the Kai treatment. Arcs weren't as long then so their filler mostly consisted of doing actually new material and new adventures, rather than padding out staredown for hours on end, or any of the stuff they had to do on Namek when Bulma was the only side character available.

    Hidden:
    Dragonball, when you remove the completely filler episodes, Like, the manga was 194 chapters, and the anime was 153 episodes. of which 21 were completely made up filler. 194 chapters into 132 episodes is roughly 1.46 chapters per episode.

    Compare that to Z where it was 325 chapters and 291 episodes, of which 37 were total filler (mostly early training, Garlic Junior, and stuff at the end of Cell/star of Buu.) 325 chapters into 254 episodes is roughly 1.27 chapters per episode.

    Then you have Kai, which was trimmed but still had a TON of filler mixed in. It was 167 episodes. 325 chapters means it ended up being 1.94 chapters per episode.


    Sure, a Kai cut wouldn't hurt it, but it wouldn't help it quite as dramatically either, since the filler was less pace killing.

    I mean, if Kai had REALLY wanted to cut ALL the fluff and hyper edit theyh might have been able to fit 2.5 or 3 chapters per episode (there's certainly fight supercuts on youtube) and at that scale you could probably cut it from 130 episodes to 100 if you trimmed ALL the fat, but what's even the point unless you're *actually* redoing it? Kai comparatively cut DBZ from 130 episodes to 84 (x2) and it wasn't even as edit intensive as it could have been..


    TLDR
    Dragonball- 1.46 chapters per ep
    DBZ-1.27 chapters per ep
    DBZ Kai- 1.94 chapters per ep

    Kai treatment wouldn't help Dragonball nearly as much as it did Z.
    Last edited by Robby; September 9th, 2021 at 04:36 AM.
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  20. #4920

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    A remake of those first few arcs would be good but only if they're overseen by a good creator with a different perspective than Toriyama. I'd definitely like to see Kamatani Haruka or Ishitani Megumi as the series director with a nice female writer like Matsui Aya or Tsubota Fumi overseeing the series composition. Women had next to no influence over the creation of the 1986-1997 cartoons so I think if you really want to make a creatively fresh and worthwhile adaption you need to bring in people with different perspectives and priorities as creators and artists.
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