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Thread: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

  1. #4841

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    That new group reminds me of Bojack and his crew.
    Complicating things since 2009.

  2. #4842
    Division Commander Daz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    I agree with the above, I really dug this. Overall, I think my engagement with DBS is very much like how Kouch has expressed his current attitude towards OP, in that I'm satisfied with a lot of the more immediate, surface-level delights (I'm paraphrasing one of your spoiler section remarks Kouch, not trying to be snide).

    Like first off, I just like seeing New Things in Dragon Ball, new angles and dynamics. This went for the Moro arc as well; it retreaded a lot, A LOT of ground, but I just liked seeing Vegeta with reverse spirit bombs which fit his character, I liked seeing Goku fight a giant enemy who had literally merged with the planet and was sprouting hands everywhere, I liked that Goku made a giant Ki Construct that grappled with the villain, I liked that he got medals for serving in the galactic police force...theres a lot of deeper storytelling issues, but I liked seeing these New Things and going "huh thats neat!"

    Similarly ,I find this whole space pirate underworld thing neat, as well as the Sayan Survivor angle; Yes, it was done with Baby in GT, but its a fine angle, and I haven't watched GT so whatever. DB has been far more egregious in terms of concept recycling even in the Toyirama -Canon days.

    And even on their own merits, the individual scens felt pretty well done? the Great Ape flashback was well constructed, the interplay between Whis and Goku and Vegeta and Beerus was fun, Granolas interplay with his robot headset is deriative but it works.

    More than anything, I just like that the DB universe feels ALIVE. Like, theres colorful people out beyond the stars, doing their own seperate things. When I think back to something like the drab as hell wastelands of the cell saga, this feels more fresh. Like a nod to a more sprawling and varied Dragonball. Yes, I know the Moro arc featured a boring as hell wasteland as well, but that at least also had an "interplanetary police force/prisoners" + the whole Gods and Angels angle. New spice on a familiar template.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Another thing I find kind of interesting is that in the 8 years since Battle of Gods, the gap between Goku and the established upper echelons of power in the universe remains vast. Even with Gokus last three powerups Whis and Beerus are still beyond him, to say nothing of all the other universes, gods, angles, and whatnot. Goku being the relative underdog compared to someone else for so long helps giver Super a flavor of its own.

  3. #4843

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    The reason why I decided to finally just give DBS a try is that I saw clips of anime Goku Vs. Hit.

    What made me happy about the clips I saw is:

    1) There seemed to be a degree of strategy involved, however simple. That just didn't happen anymore. Maybe like Goku Vs. Freeza first round was the real final time.

    2) It felt a little bit more fun. Fun basically disappeared from DB between the Raditz arc and Cell arc and while Buu was better with that, I think it is a mess in terms of basically anything else. The Ginyu Force was good, but that's about it.

    3) New stuff. Assassins and timestopping have happened in DB before, but I liked how this was done.

    Even Goku Black, as dark as it got, had a sense of humour. I take the ham and camp over the sort of really serious drama most of the Cell arc had. I love the character arcs in there, but not necessarily the tone.

    These are also the reasons why none of the Super manga before the Moro arc did anything to me. There were neat moments, but it's basically just a sequence of events. Like, put Vegeta in a garbage can and I get a smile out of it and bring back the Yardrats to get me intrigued and give Buu/Uub an important role to emphasise why Goku is so interested in even after the events of Super.

    Give the Zeno attendants a break in something like the galactic hot springs. Like, don't push the humour too much, otherwise you get the Para Para brothers in GT, but don't push it too little or you get Cell.

    Is it the best thing ever? No, but I have fun with it.
    Last edited by Kizuchan; January 21st, 2021 at 02:49 AM.

  4. #4844

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    Quote Originally Posted by Daz View Post
    Another thing I find kind of interesting is that in the 8 years since Battle of Gods, the gap between Goku and the established upper echelons of power in the universe remains vast. Even with Gokus last three powerups Whis and Beerus are still beyond him, to say nothing of all the other universes, gods, angles, and whatnot. Goku being the relative underdog compared to someone else for so long helps giver Super a flavor of its own.
    IS the difference that vast? I think Toriyama said something like if Beerus is a 10, Whis is 15, so It's strongly implied that Whis is still a magnitude beyond Beerus,

    but at the same time, the ToP had Toppo as "at the level of a God of Destruction" and Jiren even beyond that... and the Gang managed to defeat them, albeit in a tournament setting. And they've gotten stronger since. And Beerus seemed freaked out even when Goku did super blue plus kaioken.

    I think Goku might be at about that point in power now.

    (the big elephant in the room is Frieza who also keeps powerscaling, but wasn't any kind of credible threat when he first showed back up with Beerus and Whis hanging around.)

    And well, even if Beerus is a 10 and Whis is a 15... power levels are bullshit and someone only needs a single week and a few near death experiences to go from a powerlevel of like, 10,000 to 180,000, and then a single transformation to go to 5,000,000...
    Last edited by Robby; January 21st, 2021 at 12:56 PM.
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  5. #4845
    I like videogames TLC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    Jiren was canonically stronger than his own God of Destruction.

  6. #4846

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    Which is made all the more hilarious by the fact that Ultra Instinct Goku whooped his ass and then got worked by a much weaker Frieza and a tapped out Goku.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiq View Post
    I've often wondered about that myself; seems like being supported by people who only want you there so the world can end in fire (with you going to Hell in the process) would be somewhat off-putting
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  7. #4847

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    Tournament setting allows a caveat to those things though. Yeah they knocked him out of the ring... but if they were actually in a life and death battle when there was no penalty for him killing them? When flying is allowed? When they need more than a ring out? Could have been different outcome.

    Being overwhelmed by UI Goku was more a finesse than raw power thing I think. WHich was kind of the whole point of the form.
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  8. #4848

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    I mean maybe but you also had Vegeta with new power up beating God Of Destruction Toppo.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiq View Post
    I've often wondered about that myself; seems like being supported by people who only want you there so the world can end in fire (with you going to Hell in the process) would be somewhat off-putting
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  9. #4849

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    I didn't like that the tournament was so many people vs our universe, while the reaction of the audience was very "goku deliberatelly and knowingly endangered 8 universes!", in story was like they dislked beerus so they hate U7? Didn't U7's team end up with the most knock offs by far because they kept being targeted?
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  10. #4850

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    Chapter #69:

    The thread of Vegeta's guilt for the sin of the Saiyans feels like a response to the threads Toyo-tarou was trying to writing in the Moro arc. Personally, I think it works for the story Toriyama is trying to tell here. Vegeta is weighed down by guilt for something he has no control over and it is limiting his perspective on his power. Beers, as a Destruction God, is not weighed down by those sorts of things, so his power has a clarity to it.

    So, we have Vegeta and we have Granola, two swords stuck in the swap that is the past. Granola is actively seeking ways to avenge the past while Vegeta is seeking ways to atone for the past. It's really a nice set-up for a central conflict that will explode when these two meet, in my opinion. Vegeta has to lose their first encounter, do more thinking and then come back later with an answer that can match the conviction of Granola's revenge.

    I don't foresee the Dragon Balls on Cereal actually helping Granola here. I think the Dragon will announce that he is unable to grant that wish and then the wish will be stolen by the Heetas. Of course, that then begs the question "How will Granola become strong enough to face down Freeza?" Will, he does have a Namekian friend, who is to say he won't be able to unlock his hidden powers?

    I like how Freeza is this arc's Khan Noonien Singh, something of a reference to Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. Khan is spoken of, even if he isn't on screen, his presence is always felt. Here, Freeza is a force that haunts in the background, propelling the characters into action. This is just such solid, solid storytelling and so exciting. It feels like Toriyama is working with an editor that really knows how to make a story exciting. If there isn't a new editor perhaps Toriyama is simply taking interest in making his stories more complex for once? Powering-up his writing abilities after all these years is such a welcomed gift.

    Really hoping Gokuu just stays in the background. Unless Bardock's legacy is brought up and thrust on Gokuu to answer for there really isn't any need for him to be involved.
    She/Her | If you want to be a girl you can just be a girl.

  11. #4851

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    I really like what is done here with basically everything.

    I'm actually pretty tired of Vegeta. I wish he would sit back for an arc or two and someone else would be the deuteragonist for once. But if you're gonna keep him relevant, do it well and I think this is being done as best it can be here.

    This kind of recontextualisation and nuance would be great for Gohan. I really like the start of that in the anime and how he also decided to grow stronger on his own terms, but having a propulsive direction and specific goal for him going forward would be great.

    In the manga Gohan has basically nothing, though, so anything would do here. Go the anime route and spell the whole thing about Gohan having trouble balancing everything going on in his life out and you've already got something. How about we make Gohan face a situation where he gets angry, but where he doesn't succumb to it?

    Besides the mirroring motivations, I like that we are given time with Granola as a character. We see his relationship with the people on his planet. He has a mentor figure.

    I usually could care less for lore on its own, but it's good when it is used for character exploration purposes.

    Everything just makes sense motivation-wise and has additional weight because it connects back to already established stuff.

    I actually very much want Goku to be a part of this because it is ripe for actually addressing the idea of consequences from the past affecting someone in the present. Goku doesn't have to answer for Bardock's actions (that's the whole point of a sins of the father plot), but this whole thing could lead to an arc about responsibility, something that has never been actually explored with him or sort of just brushed aside. It doesn't even have to be a full blown character arc, just acknowledging some of the repetition when it comes to Goku and consequences.

    Since the Heaters value intel and knowledge so much, how about doing something with Bulma?

    The Namekians were already important in the last arc and now they are again, how about some more Piccolo focus?

    I think there really is so much more room to do something with every other main cast member than Vegeta, but as said what's done here is good.
    Last edited by Kizuchan; February 20th, 2021 at 05:38 AM.

  12. #4852

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    Hold up; they came from another realm before settling on Namek and a few other worlds? Are Namekians legit demons then?
    Complicating things since 2009.

  13. #4853

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiq View Post
    Hold up; they came from another realm before settling on Namek and a few other worlds? Are Namekians legit demons then?
    I mean if we're being technical wasn't Piccolo's father essentially a demon, not in the traditional sense of course.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiq View Post
    I've often wondered about that myself; seems like being supported by people who only want you there so the world can end in fire (with you going to Hell in the process) would be somewhat off-putting
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  14. #4854

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    I think it would be pretty cool if it all came full circle and Namekians turned out to be from the demon realm.

    I always thought this or something similar to this was the case, that the old lore could still be incorporated.

    I also thought Saiyans might've first originated from there or their ancestors came from there. I like the magic and fantasy stuff of DB better, I guess.

  15. #4855

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    I'd say in d&d terms, extraplanar. How many demons do we actually have in dragon ball? Like Majin Buu? Dabura was the devil and the king of hell, close enough, the hell onis are filler. Some of the old Baba assistants were demons? (vampire, mummy, invisible man, and.. of course Akuman). Meh, trying to connect lore like that in a toriyama manga is worthless.

    Under common definitions of demons, namekians are close enough without the destructive impulses.
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  16. #4856

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    DB is a top 5 manga. All that trash post Buu Saga doesn't exist.

  17. #4857

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    Yeah, can kind of tell Toriyama has taken over full blown writing and probably doign the initial layouts now, not just the corrections

    Broad suggestions through the tournament, and heavy editorial during the last saga, but the story is decidedly a lot stronger and denser these last couple chapters. (And I feel like thequality of the backgrounds has gone up a notch too.. did they add another assistant?) Like the actual differences in writing and combat scenes are massive. Those aren't the improvements any creator just magically makes in a month or two, Toriyama is doing a lot more heavy lifting than he was now.

    Quote Originally Posted by me, July 16th, 2019
    Back when it seemed like Beerus might actually be a serious deal at some point, I thought maybe Vegeta would find out HE was the one that order Frieza to blow up his planet and then they'd have to have it out, ending with vegeta becoming the new god of destruction.... but actually that really doesnt suit him anymore.
    ..... huh.
    Last edited by Robby; February 22nd, 2021 at 04:00 AM.
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  18. #4858

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    So, I guess I ranted pretty hard last time, right? Yeah. It seems so. What? I was drunk? That's not true! Who said that?

    Anyways, I stand by the frustration I felt that day, even if I was, indeed, kind of tipsy. Still, I seem to recall I wanted to be wrong about the direction of the new arc, and so far I've been indeed proven wrong: Granola, at least so far, is interesting. The lore and world (or multi-verse, in this case)building so far, is also interesting. The world and story are expanding in a way that I find is surprising.

    It's the super small stuff that I liked - Granola going grocery shopping. It seems like minute detail, but that alone is building character in a way a DB villain has never goten before. We learn a lot about the caracter just by him interacting in a mundane setting - he's kinda nice, but silent and kept to himself, he does not want to unnecessarily harm others, does not hate the new inhabitants of the planet that was his home and cares deeply for his old man. Still, he's not a goody two shoes, and will indeed break promises and resort to crime for his personal vendetta, and at some point he will probably snap if given the chance. This is way more potential for good stuff than I expected, so...

    ...I don't know if this is Toriyama or Toyotaro at work, but anyways, hats off. So far, so good.

    Still, the ending of the Moro fight left a huge sour taste in my mouth, so I'll proceed with caution for the time being.

    As for the Fighterz comment, I guess I should clarify - that wasn't directed towards Arc System Works, or shouldn't have been, in any case. Or not entirely, at least. They are indeed showing tons of DB love in the way they are handling the characters given to them. But whoever it is that it's deciding the expanding roster, be it Bandai, Toei, wathever - not a fan. Not a fan at all.

    That's it, clarifications made.

    Have a nice day!

  19. #4859
    Just badass Sano's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    This is sorta Dragon ball related news, one of the Dr. Slump tv series is going to be streaming on tubi tv with english subtitles.

    https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/new...-anime/.169905

  20. #4860

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    Patiently waiting for that Lady Red tv series...

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