+ Reply to Thread
Page 242 of 242 FirstFirst ... 142 192 232 240 241 242
Results 4,821 to 4,829 of 4829

Thread: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

  1. #4821

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    Because, if it *actually* worked that way, the final result would pace, read and feel very different.

    If Toriyama is writing and leading the project through the entire process, and has been since at least the tournament of power, why does none of it have his feel or style in the end?

    Why did they not start putting Toriyama's name on the chapters until chapter 43, nearly five years into the run AFTER the tournament of power? The consistently split credit with other writer/artist teams, why would they NOT put Toriyama's credit on there loudly as possible from the start?

    They gave Toriyama a "created by" credit in the early chapters, (and Viz left it out entirely) but they didn't add the "written by" till Moro when it stopped being the same outline material as the anime was getting.


    Do you also believe Togashi has a permanent medical condition that prevents him from having assistants do work on HxH for years at a time? That Oda carefully curates all the details in the databooks personally? (Sabo is dead!) Or that the Nana author forget how to draw? Or that George Martin will be done with Winds of Winter any day now? That Rowling had anything to do with The Cursed Child? That Harper Lee wrote To Kill A Mockingbird, then sat on the sequel (that she wrote first!) for fifty five years and then decided it was finally time to get it out there? That Kevin Eastman does anything on the new turtles comics aside from covers?

    It's the job of the editorial to make it look and sound like the original creator has as much input as possible, that its truly as official and proper a continuation as possible, or that there's a real legit reason for delays. And they've clearly done a good job of convincing you.

    When the anime ended, they discussed how they could goose the manga sales, and decided that saying Toriyama was really truly heavily involved was the way to go at it. That's when you get a handful of mildly edited storyboards, a handful of character designs, and suddenly a "written by" credit instead of "created by". Just enough to show he's involved.

    But its NOT there on the page. It looks, reads and feels like Dragonball by committee because that's what it is.


    Quote Originally Posted by Green_vs_Red View Post
    What would be at stake for the rematch though especially since it's been long established that Vegeta and Goku don't give all that much of a damn their home planet was destroyed and their families killed in the process....Goku at least has the excuse of being too young to remember his life on Planet Vegeta.

    Just have a rematch over Beerus slapping Bulma and being one of many people to humble Goku?
    We're too far removed from it NOW for it to make much sense as an actual grudge match or real fight, sure. But for a long while they were basically promising that Goku was training to fight Beerus again and that basically every threat they've faced so far is one Beerus could have easily hosed if he felt like it, so it's been a consistent awkward spot where they have to keep writing *around* Beerus and Whis.
    Last edited by Robby; November 22nd, 2020 at 11:11 PM.
    To support Viz hosting all Jump manga for FREE and day of release, Arlong Park will now support the official release.
    https://www.viz.com/shonenjump

    Official chapter discussions now start Sundays at Noon, EST.
    Please do not post threads when scan sites release their version, and just discuss those releases in the spoiler thread.

  2. #4822

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    Because, if it *actually* worked that way, the final result would pace, read and feel very different.

    If Toriyama is writing and leading the project through the entire process, and has been since at least the tournament of power, why does none of it have his feel or style in the end?
    My friend, are these not a matter of opinion? Because as a fan for over two decades, I do feel Toriyama’s style in the Super manga — and always have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    Why did they not start putting Toriyama's name on the chapters until chapter 43, nearly five years into the run AFTER the tournament of power? The consistently split credit with other writer/artist teams, why would they NOT put Toriyama's credit on there loudly as possible from the start?

    They gave Toriyama a "created by" credit in the early chapters, (and Viz left it out entirely) but they didn't add the "written by" till Moro when it stopped being the same outline material as the anime was getting.
    Because his involvement significantly increased. Toyotaro said that he’d be “teaming up” with Toriyama for this arc.

    I won’t address your other points because they’re about other series. Other media franchises surely work in different ways. I am concerned with this specific example of Dragon Ball Super.

    It's the job of the editorial to make it look and sound like the original creator has as much input as possible, that its truly as official and proper a continuation as possible, or that there's a real legit reason for delays. And they've clearly done a good job of convincing you.

    When the anime ended, they discussed how they could goose the manga sales, and decided that saying Toriyama was really truly heavily involved was the way to go at it. That's when you get a handful of mildly edited storyboards, a handful of character designs, and suddenly a "written by" credit instead of "created by". Just enough to show he's involved.

    But its NOT there on the page. It looks, reads and feels like Dragonball by committee because that's what it is.
    I’ll ask again: do you have anything to back up your claims? If not, then I want you to consider why you feel the way you do — and if your opinions on it are grounded in fact.

    Dragon Ball “by committee” is an interesting supposition, as manga is not an entirely solo endeavor. The assistants and editors all help to create the final product. It has always been a collaborative process — DBS’ collaboration simply takes a different form than the original DB. But that doesn’t make it any less canon.

  3. #4823

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    Quote Originally Posted by gyuukarubi View Post
    Because his involvement significantly increased. Toyotaro said that he’d be “teaming up” with Toriyama for this arc.
    So... his involvement before was minimal enough that they didn't feel it appropriate to give him a written by credit or advertise the fact he was working on it?

    He was just doing an editorial pass on something someone else was writing? Even during the period where you showed those storyboards he had some notes on?

    Almost as if... he wasn't writing?

    If he STARTED writing it during the Moro arc (and lazily rehashing Cell note for note) that's one thing, but he has not been guiding it with a strong hand this whole time.

    I’ll ask again: do you have anything to back up your claims?
    One last time.

    Because the story doesn't reflect the style or approach Toriyama has had his entire decades long career in hundreds of little ways that add up to the overall feel.

    Some of that can be explained away by heavier collaboration and another artist's style altering his, but not all of it. You read enough of an author you can tell when something changes .

    If it all feels good and right to you and exactly like his old stuff, great! They've done their job. It doesn't come across that way to lots of others.
    To support Viz hosting all Jump manga for FREE and day of release, Arlong Park will now support the official release.
    https://www.viz.com/shonenjump

    Official chapter discussions now start Sundays at Noon, EST.
    Please do not post threads when scan sites release their version, and just discuss those releases in the spoiler thread.

  4. #4824

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    I don't really read Super but this is the classic case of milking the brand vs the brand integrity.
    It's like when a business gets so big they start pinching on the ingredients to drive up shares and satisfy the shareholders.
    The quality isn't the same but you keep going back because of the brand.
    As if all the people that have their pockets full from this franchise is ever going to let it die.
    You don't really need sources or based evidence to know that this shit has worked since the start of consumerism and will likely never end.
    It's nice to say that Dragon Ball is a special case, the authors and writers actually want to break new grounds in story writing.
    Yeah good luck with that. Whoever that has integrity has to fight against hordes of cash eyed suits that want a cash machine to stay one.
    Merchandising, flashy over the top scenes, needless drama, use of nostalgia to generate more money, etc.

    Oh don't get me wrong, I have utmost respect for Toriyama.
    And there's many ways a work can shine brilliantly, turning a manga series into a multi million series is worth a shit ton of respect.
    But that means he is no longer accountable to just himself and we know what that means, it means it's never going to be his way or the highway.
    Not everyone can be like Togashi(granted Hxh is not that big) and just say fuck it I don't really care, no like literally he doesn't care about jump pressure or whatever the hell
    While I can't really compare because I haven't read super at all, I just feel like this is what the argument is.
    I won't say he's "controlled" but "greatly encouraged" to have his name there and only need to spend a day or even less a week in office to generate millions more for the company
    T
    Last edited by zeltrax225; November 23rd, 2020 at 01:45 AM.

  5. #4825

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    Another solid comparison would be evaluating the difference in tone and presentation of Jaco the Galactic Patrolman vs Dragonball Super. Clearly Toriyama's influence is there in Super with bits and pieces but Jaco feels mostly like Toriyama with all it's zaniness.

  6. #4826
    Discovered Stowaway thegab's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    US- Midwest

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    A lot of opinions and assumptions here which is fine but let's not confuse a person's take on the series for facts. Unless someone has inside information not accessible to the general public ��*♀️

  7. #4827

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    Quote Originally Posted by zeltrax225 View Post
    I don't really read Super but this is the classic case of milking the brand vs the brand integrity.
    It's like when a business gets so big they start pinching on the ingredients to drive up shares and satisfy the shareholders.
    The quality isn't the same but you keep going back because of the brand.
    As if all the people that have their pockets full from this franchise is ever going to let it die.
    You don't really need sources or based evidence to know that this shit has worked since the start of consumerism and will likely never end.
    It's nice to say that Dragon Ball is a special case, the authors and writers actually want to break new grounds in story writing.
    Yeah good luck with that. Whoever that has integrity has to fight against hordes of cash eyed suits that want a cash machine to stay one.
    Merchandising, flashy over the top scenes, needless drama, use of nostalgia to generate more money, etc.

    Oh don't get me wrong, I have utmost respect for Toriyama.
    And there's many ways a work can shine brilliantly, turning a manga series into a multi million series is worth a shit ton of respect.
    But that means he is no longer accountable to just himself and we know what that means, it means it's never going to be his way or the highway.
    Not everyone can be like Togashi(granted Hxh is not that big) and just say fuck it I don't really care, no like literally he doesn't care about jump pressure or whatever the hell
    While I can't really compare because I haven't read super at all, I just feel like this is what the argument is.
    I won't say he's "controlled" but "greatly encouraged" to have his name there and only need to spend a day or even less a week in office to generate millions more for the company
    T
    I really like this post; it really exemplifies how you think about manga from an economic standpoint.

    Manga is, first and foremost, a business. It came into being in post-WWII Japan in order to give the populace hope and courage after they suffered under apocalyptic destruction. The intent was to help civilians rise up.

    I still view manga in very much the same way: as a product with specific intent (with artistic merit, given the medium). Just as how an iPhone could be considered a product with specific intent.

    While you may consider it as “milking the franchise,” I see it as “a continuation of the franchise to give readers the same emotions they experienced in the past.”

    Dragon Ball has always been about surpassing one’s limits and personal growth. It’s about courage in the face of adversity and fighting through pain to achieve a greater goal. These traits remain consistent in Dragon Ball Super and feel the most “Dragon Ball” to me.

    If you came to Dragon Ball Super expecting the exact same comedic elements from early volumes and side stories, those still exist but are toned down. This is because at some point, Toriyama’s central theme became more prevalent.

    Yes, this is to satisfy shareholders and continue the brand. Hitotsubashi Group and Shueisha have to eat. Dragon Ball isn’t doing anything revolutionary or groundbreaking.

    However, I am continually surprised at its ability to evoke the same emotions within me as childhood — seeing Goku power up into a Super Saiyan and surpass his former self was inspiring: there’s always another level.

    We can talk about the money machine, but I personally love to see a continuation of these traits. Ultimately, I don’t always read manga for “breaking new grounds in story writing” — something like the DBS manga has immense value for other reasons.

    Toriyama’s involvement seals it for me, too. A man in his 60s returns to his creation to give us the same gift: hope, humor, and inspiration. If you know, you know. If you don’t feel it, we’re reading it differently.

  8. #4828

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    Quote Originally Posted by gyuukarubi View Post
    If you came to Dragon Ball Super expecting the exact same comedic elements from early volumes and side stories, those still exist but are toned down. This is because at some point, Toriyama’s central theme became more prevalent.
    Have you read the Buu saga lately? Or watched Battle of the Gods? Or Jaco?

    Toriyama's central theme is poop jokes. When Toriyama is allowed to be Toriyama he's all sorts of wacky and the characters are lively and full of energy and charm..

    Super is pretty much constantly in Cell saga mode, when editorial was making him take it mega seriously and everything had to be nonstop high stakes and kept telling him every two chapters "no, the idea you had that was against expectations is wrong, do something more serious. You can't have a fat guy and an old man be the villains! No, it can't be pair of teenagers either!"

    And Cell saga is the dullest, least interesting and least creative part of all 42 volumes of Dragonball outside of the Gohan development.
    To support Viz hosting all Jump manga for FREE and day of release, Arlong Park will now support the official release.
    https://www.viz.com/shonenjump

    Official chapter discussions now start Sundays at Noon, EST.
    Please do not post threads when scan sites release their version, and just discuss those releases in the spoiler thread.

  9. #4829

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    Have you read the Buu saga lately? Or watched Battle of the Gods? Or Jaco?

    Toriyama's central theme is poop jokes. When Toriyama is allowed to be Toriyama he's all sorts of wacky and the characters are lively and full of energy and charm..

    Super is pretty much constantly in Cell saga mode, when editorial was making him take it mega seriously and everything had to be nonstop high stakes and kept telling him every two chapters "no, the idea you had that was against expectations is wrong, do something more serious. You can't have a fat guy and an old man be the villains! No, it can't be pair of teenagers either!"

    And Cell saga is the dullest, least interesting and least creative part of all 42 volumes of Dragonball outside of the Gohan development.
    I think this just comes down to what aspects of Toriyama’s writing you prefer. Dragon Ball was primarily a gag manga in the beginning, but this changes in the Red Ribbon Army arc — which is super early on. Then DB becomes an action-comedy series.

    Sure, Toriyama loves to make dumb jokes from time-to-time but by no means is this a “central theme.” There’s also a pretty clear distinction between gag mangaka Toriyama (Dr. Slump, Jaco, Sand Land) and action mangaka Toriyama (the majority of Dragon Ball).

    Those gags exist in Super from varying degrees. Sure, Battle of the Gods was mostly a comedy — but what about the Toriyama-penned Resurrection of F? That’s mostly action with very little comedy.

    Conversely, we still see dumb gags in Super... from Beerus’ crush on Ribrianne to Freeza attempting to gather the Dragon Balls... so that he can be a few centimeters taller.

    I loved the Cell saga and I know I’m not alone in saying that. If you aren’t enjoying the ride, chalk it up to personal preference — but I think it’s crucial to recognize that DBS’ current tone doesn’t necessarily mean that Toriyama isn’t involved in it (and all evidence points towards heavy involvement).

+ Reply to Thread

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

     

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts