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Thread: American Politics thread: No Nazis Allowed

  1. #18601
    Discovered Stowaway The D.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: American Politics thread: No Nazis Allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by sgamer82 View Post
    Wants to, no. But if the choice is someone who might do much the same thing (Clinton/Warren) or someone who very definitely won't (Trump), you kind of have to.
    Don't get me wrong, I haaaate trumpy with every fiber of my being. He's a disgusting excuse for a human being who should never have been president. I'll vote blue no matter who, but that doesn't mean I'll like it. I voted for Hillary because she was possibly the most qualified person to ever run for president. Doesn't mean I like her or support her status quo ideals, but she was far and away superior to trumpy. Same as Bernie, same as Warren. Sometimes I forget we're all on the same "side", but when someone bad mouths the person I believe in, my emotions get the better of me, ya know?

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    I never called you an idiot, Rin. I'm sorry I came off as such a cunt. But I really, truly believe in Bernie. And there are people who trash talk him just because he's old and white, and there have been enough of them in power. I let my emotions get the better of me. I apologize.
    Gonna give ya the D.!

  2. #18602

    Default Re: American Politics thread: No Nazis Allowed

    Let's not forget the things Bernie and his supporters did that helped normalize Trump's candidacy either; refusing to fully release his tax information, the constant implications that a process he lost by millions of votes was rigged against him, and fhe message that Clinton was the corrupt one tied to Wall Street because she took money from speeches. Trump jumped on that message bigtime to promote himself as an outsider despite being known for decades as a highly corrupt person with ties to Wall Street.
    Complicating things since 2009.

  3. #18603
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    Default Re: American Politics thread: No Nazis Allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiq View Post
    Let's not forget the things Bernie and his supporters did that helped normalize Trump's candidacy either; refusing to fully release his tax information, the constant implications that a process he lost by millions of votes was rigged against him, and fhe message that Clinton was the corrupt one tied to Wall Street because she took money from speeches. Trump jumped on that message bigtime to promote himself as an outsider despite being known for decades as a highly corrupt person with ties to Wall Street.
    I don't know that Hillary is corrupt, but she's certainly not a progressive. And that's reason enough for me not to like her. And Bernie did switch to supporting Hillary after she got the nomination. It really boils down to people whining that some of Bernie's supporters have conviction in their beliefs and won't sell out just to toe the party line. If you don't believe in someone or something, don't support them. Simple as that.
    Gonna give ya the D.!

  4. #18604
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    Default Re: American Politics thread: No Nazis Allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by The D. View Post
    I don't know that Hillary is corrupt, but she's certainly not a progressive. And that's reason enough for me not to like her. And Bernie did switch to supporting Hillary after she got the nomination. It really boils down to people whining that some of Bernie's supporters have conviction in their beliefs and won't sell out just to toe the party line. If you don't believe in someone or something, don't support them. Simple as that.
    The point being made, I think, is that very thing was a factor in why Trump won. People refused to support Clinton because she wasn't Sanders, even in the face of Trump.

    The way I've looked at 2016, the moment Clinton and Trump became the candidates, Clinton's faults, real and imagined, became irrelevant.

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  5. #18605
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    Default Re: American Politics thread: No Nazis Allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by sgamer82 View Post
    The point being made, I think, is that very thing was a factor in why Trump won. People refused to support Clinton because she wasn't Sanders, even in the face of Trump.

    The way I've looked at 2016, the moment Clinton and Trump became the candidates, Clinton's faults, real and imagined, became irrelevant.
    That's one way of looking at the 2016 election, and one I came to believe as well. I didn't support Bernie vigorously until this cycle. But I can't fault other people for holding onto what they believe in. Ideals are very important to me, so I understand where they came from. But at the end of the day literally any democrat running would be better than trumpy. I hope we can all agree on that at least.
    Gonna give ya the D.!

  6. #18606
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    Default Re: American Politics thread: No Nazis Allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by The D. View Post
    That's one way of looking at the 2016 election, and one I came to believe as well. I didn't support Bernie vigorously until this cycle. But I can't fault other people for holding onto what they believe in. Ideals are very important to me, so I understand where they came from. But at the end of the day literally any democrat running would be better than trumpy. I hope we can all agree on that at least.
    Yeah. There's no Democrat except Tulsi Gabbard who wouldn't be an improvement over Trump.

    The problem with ideals in politics, to my mind, is that, as important as they may be, they mean jack all if you can't get elected in the first place.

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  7. #18607
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    Default Re: American Politics thread: No Nazis Allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by sgamer82 View Post
    Yeah. There's no Democrat except Tulsi Gabbard who wouldn't be an improvement over Trump.

    The problem with ideals in politics, to my mind, is that, as important as they may be, they mean jack all if you can't get elected in the first place.
    Fair enough. But we don't really want someone who will say whatever they need to in order to get elected. That's what we're dealing with right now and I think it's fair to say it hasn't worked out well for most of us. There needs to be a balance between ideals and electability. Finding it is a problem in and of itself though.
    Gonna give ya the D.!

  8. #18608

    Default Re: American Politics thread: No Nazis Allowed

    At this point, it's clear that every single Republican President puts us that much closer to a fundamental unwinding of not only every progressive achievement of the past century but basic democracy itself.

    So I'll gladly take any actual Democrat who says anything to get elected.
    Complicating things since 2009.

  9. #18609

    Default Re: American Politics thread: No Nazis Allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Starfish View Post
    "Bernie and his followers already ruined one election"

    -Stayed in the race until it became clear that he had no shot at victory, at which point he very quickly switched gears to aggressively campaigning for Hillary Clinton.
    He stayed in for MONTHS after the math was impossible for him. It was mathematically extremely unlikely for him to get it as early as March, impossible by May barring Clinton either dying or losing 18 of the 21 remaining races (she won 14 of them) , and locked in impossible by June, even if he had won all 9 remaining contests he couldn't have caught up.

    At the very least he should have dropped immediately after Trump was picked to be the Republican guy in mid July, but he held until the end of July at the DNC convention, at which he did NOT not move to nominate Clinton by acclamation at the end of, as she had done for Obama.

    No one can say how much damage that extra 2-5 months of campaigning against her did, but in a race that she WON and only lost due to a few thousand votes in three states, that might have been a difference maker. (Along with Comey "opening an investigation" a week beforehand, and the independants that ran and siphoned off votes.) Especially since it was during that time he hurled certain things at her that Trump picked up on and ran with like "she's beholden to wall street."

    Also all the while he did nothing to dissuade the toxic mess that IS Bernie Bros and those asshole taint him, however much that may or may not be his fault. Maybe if he had dropped out sooner to stop making people think he had a chance and the system was rigged, (and the math really did say it was over by April/May barring a miracle) and done more to persuade his base things might have gone differently. He neither quickly or aggressively switched to campaigning for Hillary after he lost, and in fact kept complaining that the system was rigged against him... something he has CONTINUED to do against Elizabeth Warren, implying she's getting media coverage just because she's a woman..

    I liked Bernie, I wanted him to be the guy, he pulled the discussion into places it needed to be pulled, I voted for him in the primaries. But he REALLY soured himself those last couple months and he hasn't impressed me at all this time around. The first time he was running for the message, this time he's running for himself.


    That said, I'll vote anything over Trump, so whatever Dem makes it to the nom I'm fine with.
    Last edited by Robby; December 9th, 2019 at 04:48 PM.
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  10. #18610

    Default Re: American Politics thread: No Nazis Allowed

    On the note of the 2016 Election, The Inspector General Report has been put up

    https://www.motherjones.com/politics...the-real-hoax/


    To no one's suprise it debunks a lot of the bullshit claims Trump and his gullible calvacade of supporters have been insistent upon using to try to discredit the investigation into Russia's interference. While revealing some interesting tidbits such as Steele meeting with Ivanka Trump.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiq View Post
    I've often wondered about that myself; seems like being supported by people who only want you there so the world can end in fire (with you going to Hell in the process) would be somewhat off-putting
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  11. #18611
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    Default Re: American Politics thread: No Nazis Allowed

    I think anybody with a brain can all agree: Vote for anybody over Trump. Fuck, I'm not Libertarian or Green Party but if that ended up being the one with the biggest chance of beating Angry Orange, then hell yes I'd vote for them.

    That said it's all going to be Blue vs. Red, it always is.

  12. #18612

    Default Re: American Politics thread: No Nazis Allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by desa View Post
    Same reason third parties are frowned upon. Vothing in the US is more strategic than democratic. People consder Bernie stayed to long or that he did not do good enough to dispell the idea that the DNC aren't shady assholes that fucked him over and thefore does not deserve their vote.
    One can't help but wonder how US politics would look if they had a percentage based multiparty system. Would probably help with voter turn out if nothing else

  13. #18613
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    Default Re: American Politics thread: No Nazis Allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    He neither quickly or aggressively switched to campaigning for Hillary after he lost, and in fact kept complaining that the system was rigged against him... something he has CONTINUED to do against Elizabeth Warren, implying she's getting media coverage just because she's a woman..
    On the topic of the claim that the primary was rigged against him though... You know who else said that? Elizabeth Warren. Granted, she backtracked on that claim just a few days later, but when her first response was "YES, it was rigged" and then a few days later she's like "Um, I dunno, maybe there was some bias but on the whole it was pretty fair"... It's entirely possible that it's my own bias in play here, but to me the former claim seems a lot more authentic whereas the latter is more of a "Oh shoot, maybe I shouldn't have been quite so blunt."

    That said, you guys have brought up some points I didn't know about here at least. And to be fair, while Bernie is far and away my preferred candidate (Not that it matters because, as much as the President of the United States has influence on the entire world, as a Norwegian I literally am not allowed to vote in this election at all), I would still enthusiastically back Elizabeth Warren if she ends up winning the primary. Biden though... If he's the nominee then I'll still sooner see him win than Trump getting a second term, but if he gets the nomination I will be very worried indeed. The guy keeps putting his foot in his mouth on a near daily basis, and there's like a trillion different things Trump can criticize him for and actually be right about. A while back Trump posted something on his Twitter about how Biden is clearly not mentally fit to be president, and while that is pretty much the textbook definition of "Pot calling the kettle black"... He's not wrong. Biden is barely even coherent half the time he speaks, and pretty much the only thing that's ever kept his 2020 campaign afloat is "Hey, he was Obama's VP and I liked Obama!" Which... I really hope runs out of steam sooner rather than later. I have confidence that both Bernie and Warren could beat Trump (and if they were to, say, team up and be on the same ticket, I feel it would be a surefire bet, whether that be Bernie as president and Warren as VP or the other way around), but Biden? Trump would walk all over him and win easily.

  14. #18614
    Someone call for Zeidoktor sgamer82's Avatar
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    Default Re: American Politics thread: No Nazis Allowed

    Still better than Trump, who regularly shoots himself in the foot then shoves it in his mouth to staunch the bleeding.

    On that note, from today's developing What the Fuck Just Happened Today feed:

    Trump is scheduled to meet with the Russian foreign minister today. The meeting will be Sergei Lavrov's first trip to Washington since his controversial meeting with Trump in 2017, during which Trump divulged classified information to the Russians the day after he fired then-FBI Director James Comey. There are no details on what Trump plans to discuss with Lavrov, but Secretary of State Mike Pompeo has confirmed that he will also attend today's meeting. (NPR / Axios)

    https://www.npr.org/2019/12/09/78653...-house-tuesday

    House Democrats unveiled two articles of impeachment against Trump, charging him with abuse of power and obstruction of Congress. Members of the Judiciary Committee worked through the night to prepare the articles. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi reiterated ahead of the release that Trump tried to "corrupt our upcoming elections" and that he remains a "threat to our democracy and national security." Trump, meanwhile, continues to insist that he did "NOTHING" wrong, and that impeaching a president with his record would be an act of "sheer Political Madness!" (Associated Press / New York Times / Washington Post / Reuters / Politico / CNN / NBC News)

    https://apnews.com/bb81279725b6f810d5792502254f2f88

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  15. #18615
    Charming Man Nobodyman's Avatar
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    Default Re: American Politics thread: No Nazis Allowed

    So does anyone think an impeachment really has any chance of succeeding and removing Trump from office? It seems all the Republicans are still pretty steadfast in supporting him and I'm not sure what an impeachment process is going to change. Seems like this is going more the way of Bill Clinton and not Richard Nixon.

  16. #18616

    Default Re: American Politics thread: No Nazis Allowed

    It's got no chance of succeeding since the public is far too entrenched in opinions already. Democrats are making a half political, half moral stand.

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  17. #18617

    Default Re: American Politics thread: No Nazis Allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Starfish View Post
    On the topic of the claim that the primary was rigged against him though... You know who else said that? Elizabeth Warren. Granted, she backtracked on that claim just a few days later, but when her first response was "YES, it was rigged" and then a few days later she's like "Um, I dunno, maybe there was some bias but on the whole it was pretty fair"... It's entirely possible that it's my own bias in play here, but to me the former claim seems a lot more authentic whereas the latter is more of a "Oh shoot, maybe I shouldn't have been quite so blunt."
    There is a difference between "it is rigged" and "this is a name that we've known for 30 years associated with a successful popular president... and this is a guy who has kind of been in the shadows and an unknown outsider the whole time. "

    Of COURSE Clinton drew more support, people actually knew who she was. She had a lot of delegates pledged to her before she even started running... but they would have left if a better choice had presented itself. Same thing is happening now with Biden. He's probably the worst of the top choices, but because he was in the Obama admin he's the frontrunner. Same thing is why Arnold Schwarzenegger got to be governor of California.

    Bernie was a guy that wasn't even a democrat until he ran. He had decades of history and zero media presence or notable accomplishments under his belt. His *message* got him a following and a base and carried him a long way on a star that rose very fast, and he rocketed to stardom as this guy we'd never heard of before. But maybe if he'd actually done anything significant in the previous 30 years of service to be more a public name beforehand, if there had been more time for people to get used to his "crazy" socialist ideas, if he'd made a presence a year or two sooner as Obama did, instead of just a cog until he day he started running, or if he'd been much younger than Clinton, if if if, he would have gotten more support.

    It was equally "rigged" for CLinton in 2008, she was the party's first choice and won all the early states, but then Obama just kept doing better than her and winning the state votes and gaining momentum, so the party went with him. Bernie didn't manage what Obama did, and Clinton tallied millions more votes than he did and won 3/5 of the states. It was not a close race at all, despite his running to the end. if it were the new guy that was drilling up interest would have been given the shot. Or if he were 20 years younger, maybe he would have been an obvious VP pick.

    I have confidence that both Bernie and Warren could beat Trump (and if they were to, say, team up and be on the same ticket, I feel it would be a surefire bet, whether that be Bernie as president and Warren as VP or the other way around), but Biden? Trump would walk all over him and win easily.
    Will never ever EVER happen. You don't have an 80 year old get a 70 year old as their VP, or vice versa. You can have a young president with an older mentor guy as VP, or you can have an old president with a young replacement ready to go... but you're not going to get two really old folks on the same ticket no matter how popular they are individually.

    This is the best and most talented field we've had in ages, pretty much any of the guys in the middle would be excellent VP choices.
    Last edited by Robby; December 10th, 2019 at 01:25 PM.
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  18. #18618

    Default Re: American Politics thread: No Nazis Allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Jabberwok View Post
    It's got no chance of succeeding since the public is far too entrenched in opinions already. Democrats are making a half political, half moral stand.
    So what would you guys in the know say is the key differences betwenn this and the Nixon impeachment? I use that as a point of comparison since it is the only successful ousting of a US president that i'm aware of lol

  19. #18619
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    Default Re: American Politics thread: No Nazis Allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
    So what would you guys in the know say is the key differences betwenn this and the Nixon impeachment? I use that as a point of comparison since it is the only successful ousting of a US president that i'm aware of lol
    Not that I was alive at the time, but I think the key difference is that the country wasn't as divided back then as it is now. Back then, Republicans could acknowledge when someone from their party fucked up (with some coaxing), but now they'll follow their leader into hell, no matter what crooked shit he pulls.

    Also, as much of a shitheel as Nixon was, he at least had some self-awareness, whereas Trump thinks he's a god.

  20. #18620

    Default Re: American Politics thread: No Nazis Allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
    So what would you guys in the know say is the key differences betwenn this and the Nixon impeachment? I use that as a point of comparison since it is the only successful ousting of a US president that i'm aware of lol
    The difference is republicans had a bit more decency and were actually in it for the democracy and not just the "win", and Nixon at least had some understanding of legacy and integrity of the office. He abused the position but he respected it.

    Also, Nixon covered up a hotel break in. Trump is covering up dozens of acts of treason and selling out to our enemies. The scale is vastly different.

    If the republicans were at *all* decent, Trump would have been ousted and replaced with Pence two years ago. Its not even like they have to give up the presidency if they ditch Trump, they can have Pence *today* and he'll still rubberstamp all the same judges and policies.

    But they've gerrymandered and rigged and oppressed for decades so that 30% of the vote has 60% of the power, and they know they're over in any *fair* election, so they're desperate to hold on.

    Also also, at that specific point in time, the democrat and republican parties were kind of still switching around so they were a lot more in the middle. The parties basically switched in the 60's and 70's around Kennedy, when civil rights hit, which makes historical comparisons weird. (Republicans don't get to claim Lincoln, and Democrats don't get to claim Roosevelt) So both parties were a bit more in the middle at that time but with outliers.
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