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Thread: The Last of Us Part II: Battle Tendency

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeartOfDarkness View Post
    That's literally what the game is trying to do right down to including dogs that the players have to kill or give names to enemy NPC's in order for the player to feel bad. Do I even need to mention Mel?
    that's not there to make the player feel bad about their actions bacause again the player doesn't have a choice. the story is about the characters not the player.

    Also gotta love the ending. Hundred's of people dead, Ellie doesn't question shit. Timeskip, she now questions it.

    Brilliant character-writing, I gotta say. Just use timeskips as a shortcut to skip any genuine character-development. Who needs actual character-study and organic character progressive when you can just jump all over the timeline, show the character "changed", skipped any moment of "growth" and then whack you over the head with "VIOLENCE BAD".
    Spoiler:
    the "moment of growth" when she questions shit, happens while she was drowning abby and gave up. ellie was so tired of all the cuttings and shootings that while she was drowning abby. she realized her quest for revenge wasn’t giving her any strength. she knew there was no point. That it wouldn’t make her feel any better. that the nightmares weren’t just going to stop. that it wasn’t going to bring joel back. That her life still meant nothing. so she gave up.

    ellie's character since the first game was about finding meaning in her life, but killing countless people to end up choking the life out of an emaciated women who is actually no worst than her and holds basically no animosity against her in front of a kid who will probably die without her. is that who ellie truly is? did she want to accept that that’s who she really is? that that’s what her life has culminated into? all of these thoughts hit her in that moment so she gave up.

    you'll say that sparing one person after killing dozens doesn't make sense, but i think the ending doesn't work if ellie didn't do all of those horrible things.
    Last edited by Lord Gaimon; June 27th, 2020 at 07:38 AM.

  2. #62

    Default Re: The PlayStation Thread

    Go read/the videos where the developers THEMSELVES have stated that those aspects exist for players to feel bad about the violence. I'm not sure if you understand the purpose of game-design and mechanics in relation to the narrative.

    The problem with that is again the timeskip is used as a means of skipping the moments and then using the passage of time as an excuse for "duh character change". By your own description, the change comes outta nowhere. Why *that* particular moment and not any time before the timeskip? Even though after the timeskip, the character, as shown in the gameplay section, hasn't really changed much.

    Similar technique is used in Vinland Saga after the war arc and before the start of the farming arc. The character does horrible shit in the war arc and then the farming arc is spend entirely on the character questioning his previous actions and then coming to terms with it/growing as a person and finding new purpose. Logical character progressive and the trajectory that makes sense for the character from everything that has been build up since the beginning.

    In TLOU2, Ellie stops because....the plot demands it but then we find out that she actually hasn't stopped (even though somehow her character seems to be perfectly over it) because again the plot demands and THEN she stops again because the plot demands it. There is no consistent logical character progression. It's stop-start-stop like the way the plot demands it rather than the character itself changing or behaving in an organic manner. You don't see Ellie questioning her previous actions, you don't see her flinching or being disgusted by the sight of violence and yet somehow during the final battle, she just finally starts doing that?

    You are trying to argue that Ellie changes but the problem is that Ellie is clearly a plot-device here. She does whatever the plot dictates and not whatever makes sense for her.

    The "change" here is basically like Sasuke randomly deciding he wants to be the Hokage. No logical reasoning, no progression, no build up, just a random "oh but" moment.

  3. #63
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    i haven't seen any developer interviews, but what i'm trying to say is that the game isn't trying to make you feel bad about the violence in the sense of "oh look what you are doing" but " oh look at what the characters are doing"

    ellie stops the first time because abby got away and everyone she cares about almost dies. but she still hasn't achieved any peace of mind and still wants revenge as evidenced by the nightmares so she starts again as soon as she learns where abby is then right as she is about to achieve her revenge she realizes it won't solve her problems so she gives up. seems logical to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by HeartOfDarkness View Post
    The "change" here is basically like Sasuke randomly deciding he wants to be the Hokage. No logical reasoning, no progression, no build up, just a random "oh but" moment.
    i don't want to start an argument about naruto, but this makes complete sense

  4. #64
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    Sometimes you have to admire the simplicity of a game like Doom compared to this. You are the Doom Slayer, Demons are bad, now rip and tear.

  5. #65

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    I mean you could if this were still the 90’s and some FPS’es didn’t still cause motion sickness
    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiq View Post
    I've often wondered about that myself; seems like being supported by people who only want you there so the world can end in fire (with you going to Hell in the process) would be somewhat off-putting
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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green_vs_Red View Post
    I mean you could if this were still the 90’s and some FPS’es didn’t still cause motion sickness
    Not a fan of the new game?

  7. #67

    Default Re: The PlayStation Thread

    Last Doom game I played would’ve been a rerelease of the 2nd game on Xbox Live wasn’t too fond that.

    Did play Wolfenstein New Order and the New Colossus and liked them (the former more so than the latter).
    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiq View Post
    I've often wondered about that myself; seems like being supported by people who only want you there so the world can end in fire (with you going to Hell in the process) would be somewhat off-putting
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  8. #68

    Default Re: The PlayStation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Gaimon View Post
    but the game isn't trying to do that though, it's not trying to make the player feel bad because the player doesn't have a choice at all it's all entirely the characters doing.
    It's 100% trying to make you feel bad for al the killing, thats why it spends TEN HOURS with the other character going "see, these were REAL people you killed!And I liked that one particular dog, never mind the dozens you killed before that. Don't you feel like a monster now?" The problem is they completely botched the delivery so it doesn't work at all BECAUSE they spent so long having you kill hoards and mindlessly kill them. And you can't avoid everything and get a no-death run, you HAVE to kill them, so its not even a choice like in Undertale or metal Gear, they just force it on you. .
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    It's 100% trying to make you feel bad for al the killing, thats why it spends TEN HOURS with the other character going "see, these were REAL people you killed!And I liked that one particular dog, never mind the dozens you killed before that. Don't you feel like a monster now?" The problem is they completely botched the delivery so it doesn't work at all BECAUSE they spent so long having you kill hoards and mindlessly kill them. And you can't avoid everything and get a no-death run, you HAVE to kill them, so its not even a choice like in Undertale or metal Gear, they just force it on you. .
    but ellie is the one who killed them not you, the story is about the characters not the player, so i don't understand why you should get a choice.

  10. #70

    Default Re: The PlayStation Thread

    You.Control.Ellie.

    I think you haven't played the game at all and watched it on Youtube. I refuse to believe someone missed the very obvious point of the gameplay here.

  11. #71
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    you don't control that she kills people. only how she does it.
    i don't know why you keep insisting the game is a meta commentary about gamers or whatever.
    Last edited by Lord Gaimon; June 27th, 2020 at 06:16 PM.

  12. #72

    Default Re: The PlayStation Thread

    Expecting the game to go along with its own tone, thematic and narrative point isn't really meta commentary or whatever the hell you are on about.

    The game wants to be a serious take on violence and wants to explore the cycle of violence. Go read the director's interviews and the videos where they clearly talk about what they wanted to convey with the game. This isn't even debatable. The creator (Neil) plainly states that he wanted to explore the cycle of violence and that's why the game is about revenge and is dark, edgy and brutal and he wanted to convey that with the gameplay sections too alongside giving NPC's random names or having the owner of the dog call out to the dog when its dead etc....

    The problem WITH that is the killing in terms of gameplay isn't really horrible or attempts to convey anything. The game simply wants to catch you with the killing and the blood but there is no other way of playing the game thus creating this absolutely massive inconsistency between what the game wants to be in terms of gameplay (cartoony violence/gore) vs the narrative that tries its hardest to be seen as a serious commentary of the nature of violence. The two simply don't mesh or flow with each other. This is like combing Fairytail's stupid shit with Berserk's serious tone all in one package that the writer wants the audience to really take it seriously.

    Again, I'm genuinely asking if you interacted with the game at all or did you watch it on Youtube? Because literally spending more than 2 hours with the gameplay, you can tell how utterly disconnected the core narrative and core mechanics are. That, from my experience, isn't anything new for ND games. But it is by far the biggest disconnect I have seen from them.

    EDIT: It feels like MiyamotoMushashi decided to step away from the conversation the moment anything from the game was brought in and not just blind wankery. Seems like a rather big trend with ND fans nowadays.....

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeartOfDarkness View Post
    Expecting the game to go along with its own tone, thematic and narrative point isn't really meta commentary or whatever the hell you are on about.
    you keep bringing up choice and that there isn't other ways to play the game but those things are thematically useful only when you're making commentary about the player.

    there is no other way of playing the game thus creating this absolutely massive inconsistency between what the game wants to be in terms of gameplay (cartoony violence/gore) vs the narrative that tries its hardest to be seen as a serious commentary of the nature of violence. The two simply don't mesh or flow with each other. This is like combing Fairytail's stupid shit with Berserk's serious tone all in one package that the writer wants the audience to really take it seriously.
    well i just disagree with this, i think it would be inconsistent if you had a choice not the other way around.
    is your problem that the gamelplay is fun because it kinda has to be this is a video game after all, even in serious movies scenes of atrocities or brutal action are fun to watch.

    Again, I'm genuinely asking if you interacted with the game at all
    yes lol why are you so baffled by this i'm not the only one in the world who liked the game.

  14. #74

    Default Re: The PlayStation Thread

    Yep, you haven't played the game.

  15. #75
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    lol ok
    ...................

  16. #76
    Aspiring Film Critic TLC's Avatar
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    The game is obviously trying to make the player guilty about Ellie killing all those people. The problem with their approach is twofold.

    The first being that killing people is super fun and that the game is at its best when it's not trying to be hardcore edgey dark drama.

    The second problem is that they go about it in such a hamfisted embarrassingly cartoonish manner that it's impossible to take it seriously. Having random enemies shouting random names, make exaggerated gurgling sounds on death, making you kill people for 15 hours only to switch to the other side and shove their lives and their emotions in your face. How dare I kill them, these were living people with dreams and ambitions goddammit. Yeah well when the game doesn't give you a choice, it's hard to give a fuck is it?

    Everything about the execution comes off as an idea the director latched onto from the outset and designed the entire game to revolve around it but lacked the proper understanding of how to make such a concept work and instead gave a delivery of the idea that is frankly childish. And given how much money was invested and crunch was put into this game by hard working people, that it's all brought down by a director high on his own farts whose nowhere near as smart as he thinks he is is kinda sad and awkward.

  17. #77

    Default Re: The PlayStation Thread

    The worst thing about it? It's gonna sell really well, gather shit ton of accolades and awards and Neil practically will be upheld as some ballsy director that broke new grounds. Instead of a director that clearly wanted to be like Zack Synder with fancy storytelling and edgy style but no substance whatsoever. The entire thing comes across as a really shitty CW teen drama. And yet Neil will be given awards for the writing.

    I hate it when honest and actual ground breaking game developers get overshadowed by mainstream mediocre developers that still after a decade of being in the industry have learned nothing aside from polishing turds and pumping out gameplay systems that would make PS2 games look decades ahead and then being praised for it.

  18. #78
    Aspiring Film Critic TLC's Avatar
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    White guy fails upwards, what else is new?

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by TLC View Post
    The game is obviously trying to make the player guilty about Ellie killing all those people. The problem with their approach is twofold.

    The first being that killing people is super fun and that the game is at its best when it's not trying to be hardcore edgey dark drama.

    The second problem is that they go about it in such a hamfisted embarrassingly cartoonish manner that it's impossible to take it seriously. Having random enemies shouting random names, make exaggerated gurgling sounds on death, making you kill people for 15 hours only to switch to the other side and shove their lives and their emotions in your face. How dare I kill them, these were living people with dreams and ambitions goddammit. Yeah well when the game doesn't give you a choice, it's hard to give a fuck is it?

    Everything about the execution comes off as an idea the director latched onto from the outset and designed the entire game to revolve around it but lacked the proper understanding of how to make such a concept work and instead gave a delivery of the idea that is frankly childish. And given how much money was invested and crunch was put into this game by hard working people, that it's all brought down by a director high on his own farts whose nowhere near as smart as he thinks he is is kinda sad and awkward.
    Sounds like a bunch of pretentious bull-shit.

  20. #80

    Default Re: The PlayStation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by HeartOfDarkness View Post
    You.Control.Ellie.

    I think you haven't played the game at all and watched it on Youtube. I refuse to believe someone missed the very obvious point of the gameplay here.
    So haven't played this game, nor the first, but they're on my backlog just because all of these discussions make want to try them for myself. But I got an issue with the point you're trying to make here.

    Just because you control Ellie (or any other character in any other game) it doesn't mean you are her or that you have to make decissions for her. This is not a western rpg, where you get to create your avatar from scratch, this is a story-driven game so you're going along with the story, Ellie makes the big decisions and you, as a player, just need to figure out what's the best or funnest away to acomplish them so you can see the next little bit of story.
    From what i know, Ellie was raised in a very violent setting in the fisrt game so that's all she knows, when all you have is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail. So from a narrative stand-point it makes sense you spend the sequel killing everyone, even if the game is trying to tell you that's not the best thing you could have done. It doesn't need to give you an option to play the game without killing everyone if the point it's trying to make is that Ellie is already broken and/or unfixable.

    Now, you are more than free to have your opinion in how well or how poorly that was handled. If they missed the mark by a little or alot. If other games tackled this issue much better. All of that is up to you, but critizing a story-driven game because it doesn't let you "create" your own character is not fair, imo. The character is not supposed to be you, you're the one who should embrace their point of view to try and see the world that way.
    If you're reading a book you don't complain about how it doesn't let you change the character's actions because you know you're just follwing a narrative. A game doesn't need to let you do anything you want, it just needs to give some leeway so that you can embrace the character you're playing a little bit more.

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