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Thread: Talk Religion And Be F*king Nice About It

  1. #321

    Default Re: Talk Religion And Be F*king Nice About It

    Quote Originally Posted by BWYYWLTGHR View Post
    Sure, but what isn't ugly when it becomes a lockstep expected communal norm?
    It doesn't even need to be Saudi levels. Even the basic Bible Belt form is pretty bad. I've long maintained that the difference in religious conservatism in the Northeast US compared to the South has a lot to do with this cultural difference.
    I also think a good theory for Northern Ireland's extreme religious conservatism relative to the rest of the UK (with it's Protestantism being far far far more conservative than the rest of Protestant Europe) is that the civil conflict there contributed to a greater sense of communal lockstep everything. Which in turn results in the state of things there as we know it.
    I would offer the relatively conservativism on some topics religion wise in the Irish Republic has some roots in Catholicism being likewise communally entrenched through a sense of nationalism in their recent history. Even if obviously not as fraught and high stakes as Northern Ireland.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Hell I'll extend that theory to the Arab world as a whole.

    Though this is by no means a perfect theory, I mean, I beleive it explains this sort of thing some places. But not all cornered communities turn out that way. So it maybe just one factor.

  2. #322
    Future good poster NER's Avatar
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    Default Re: Talk Religion And Be F*king Nice About It

    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey King View Post
    A thought or two.

    1. Uh...is it safe to post that? From in SA? 0_o
    2. Do you think that if you grew up in a place like say Bosnia or Azerbaijan, where people are very relaxed about Islam, that you might look at religion differently? Islam specifically? Not saying you would follow it or believe in it. But perhaps not look at so cynically? I would ask the same thing to someone making a post like that about Christianity if they grew up in rural Alabama, Northern Ireland, or Poland for perspective.
    1- I hope so.
    2- To answer your question: of course my perspective won't be the same. I live in a place dictated by religion and I am deprived of a lot of the joys of life y'all here take for granted. I

    I do want to point out that I am no where near as cynical as you may think, whether you judge me for what I believe in or compare me to others. I'll talk more in depth later.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by BWYYWLTGHR View Post
    Sure, but what isn't ugly when it becomes a lockstep expected communal norm? And I do realize that Ner might have some real horrendous experiences with religion. I hope I didn't seem too dismissive of him or anything.
    You didn't, and I am nowhere near done with the explanations of my philosophies so it is easy to expect people reacting to my thoughts the way you did, its fine.



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  3. #323
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    Default Re: Talk Religion And Be F*king Nice About It

    It really is such a different experience being born in a family or country where you're forced to practice religion instead of choosing to do so by choice. I probably wouldn't have the same attitudes towards religion had I been born in a muslim country and forced to practice Islam. I'm not the perfect example of a muslim by any means, but to me, Islam's beauty really shines when a person chooses to study it, believe it, and practice it completely of their own free will.

    I've heard people moving here to Canada from muslim majority countries saying that they were not or were barely practicing Islam before coming here and being shocked by how small communities go out of their way to practice, and how they were inspired by them to become more devout.

    It's an odd observation but it makes sense. When you do something out of love and devotion then you find it more meaningful to your life, but when you do something because you're told to, it doesn't affect you the same way.
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  4. #324

    Default Re: Talk Religion And Be F*king Nice About It

    you've been burned out by how much of the religion is shoved down on you, i get it. but you have to understand that it has nothing to do with the religion and everything to do with the people who enforce it upon you. even the coolest of things will seem shitty once they've been forced upon someone.
    in short, islam is not to blame here but it's strict practitioners are.
    Quote Originally Posted by NER View Post
    Islam makes sense only in the sense that it was created to control people, gain political power, and wealth. It stayed alive because of two factors mainly: 1- People need something to believe in. 2- Leaders need to control said people.
    And before you think my view is too shallow or simplistic, just be aware that when I talk of leaders seeking control and people needing a belief to fight for, they do not do it consciously. The leaders may very well believe in this religion they are controlling the masses through, thinking what they're doing is beneficial for all.
    manipulative people have tons of things they can exploit to control others, it's not just religion.
    outside of saudia arabia and isis i've never actually seen any leader use islam to force orders on people. actually, fear and intimidation are mostly the methods dictators use and not religion.
    so yeah im not sure about your point.

  5. #325
    Future good poster NER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanz View Post
    manipulative people have tons of things they can exploit to control others, it's not just religion.
    outside of saudia arabia and isis i've never actually seen any leader use islam to force orders on people. actually, fear and intimidation are mostly the methods dictators use and not religion.
    so yeah im not sure about your point.
    I know fully well that religion is not the only thing one can exploit to control the masses, but its been proven historically to be the best, if only because its something totally intangible.
    I think religions make the best tools to control people because you have to fight to prove them, since there is literally no other way to do it. Its a twisted and sickening yet the most human of all paradoxes. I always believed that crusaders never fight and war to prove their religions to others, more so than they do it to prove them to themselves. If I risk my life for something, if I see both the blood of my friends and enemies being spilled, how can this religion be fake? If I fast from food, drinks, and sex half of my days during Ramadan, how can Islam be fake? You keep fighting (preaching, fasting, praying, doing haj, visiting a church, etc) because it is the only way you can silence your doubts in what you believe in.

    Like I said before, religion is to me anything that one believe in to push them forward and gives their lives reason and validation. There is a huge number of Saudis who claim that they're Muslims, but its so apparent that what they actually worship is the status quo and the traditions of those who preceded them. That's very evident with Hijab. Only one of the top four Muslim scholars saw it as a must to cover a female's face, and there are several evidences that women even in the days of the prophet did not cover their faces and that the idea of today's hijab was born of nothing more than misteachings and misconceptions that grew stupidly large in the past 300~ years or so. Yet if you try to argue with a typical Saudi about this you should be prepared for an insane lash out by them.

    Last thing I feel like addressing currently (I wish I could just document all and each of my thoughts but TIME ugh) is your "islam is not to blame here but it's strict practitioners are."
    I'll go the extra mile and give you some context: there isn't anything against females working or showing their faces in Quran and Trusted hadiths (Words and sayings) of the prophet. But you want to know what
    undisputedly is said in them?
    1- Females cannot marry without the consent of a male guardian
    2- In court, the testimony of a female has only half of the value of that of a male.
    3- If a father dies, males take generally 50% more of the inheritance that females would.
    4- Homosexuality is punished by death.

    These four things I can provide you (or you can pay the effort to do your research) with Islamic texts that support them undisputedly.


    I know it can easily be thought that I am bitter at Islam for giving me a limited and worse life than I could have had otherwise, but my current thoughts and beliefs are way more thought out and objective than that. I am very certain of this.
    Last edited by NER; June 23rd, 2017 at 07:32 AM.



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  6. #326
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    Default Re: Talk Religion And Be F*king Nice About It

    There are historical and logical reasons for all of those points but personally I don't really feel like debating.
    I'm sorry that your experience with religion has been so negative. The Saudi culture of Islam has had a really bad effect on you, as I understand. The niqab/women working/driving isn't a thing anywhere else in the world so sometimes I can hardly understand an entire country to not have improved in those matters for eons.

    But instead of analyzing all the cultural Saudi additions to Islam, how about the basics? Do you believe in God or a higher power at all?

    (Also I just want to note, following MK's comment, if you feel unsafe continuing this discussion then please don't feel obligated to continue, and posts can be deleted.)
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  7. #327
    Future good poster NER's Avatar
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    Default Re: Talk Religion And Be F*king Nice About It

    Quote Originally Posted by Femme View Post
    There are historical and logical reasons for all of those points but personally I don't really feel like debating.
    I'm sorry that your experience with religion has been so negative. The Saudi culture of Islam has had a really bad effect on you, as I understand. The niqab/women working/driving isn't a thing anywhere else in the world so sometimes I can hardly understand an entire country to not have improved in those matters for eons.

    But instead of analyzing all the cultural Saudi additions to Islam, how about the basics? Do you believe in God or a higher power at all?

    (Also I just want to note, following MK's comment, if you feel unsafe continuing this discussion then please don't feel obligated to continue, and posts can be deleted.)
    I don't think it's my experience being negative is most of the reason I'm saying what I am. I'm not being bashful or hateful of others and I honestly try to be as objective as my situation allows me to be. My thoughts on how religions function within us are separable enough from the fact I'm Saudi and all I think.

    Regarding whether or not I believe in God, I don't really know. The question of creation and how the world came to be is not one I think is that relevant, for example. And regarding God, I don't think one exists solely because I don't think we are important enough for a higher power to care about overseeing and judging us.



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  8. #328

    Default Re: Talk Religion And Be F*king Nice About It

    Quote Originally Posted by NER View Post
    I don't think it's my experience being negative is most of the reason I'm saying what I am. I'm not being bashful or hateful of others and I honestly try to be as objective as my situation allows me to be. My thoughts on how religions function within us are separable enough from the fact I'm Saudi and all I think.

    Regarding whether or not I believe in God, I don't really know. The question of creation and how the world came to be is not one I think is that relevant, for example. And regarding God, I don't think one exists solely because I don't think we are important enough for a higher power to care about overseeing and judging us.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

  9. #329

    Default Re: Talk Religion And Be F*king Nice About It

    btw, why aren't "all" Christians doing the Lent like Muslims do the Ramadan?

  10. #330

    Default Re: Talk Religion And Be F*king Nice About It

    I believe that jihad main reason was to encourage people defend themselves when the are attacked and the main purpose of all real religions are so that people live a healthy life and don't kill each other for things like greed

  11. #331
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    Default Re: Talk Religion And Be F*king Nice About It

    Quote Originally Posted by NER View Post
    I know fully well that religion is not the only thing one can exploit to control the masses, but its been proven historically to be the best, if only because its something totally intangible.

    How so? How do you even seperate religion from the culture at large? Even in a modern context it's not something I would wish even on my worst enemies(well, maybe I would if I had any). Let alone in a historical context.




    Quote Originally Posted by Femme View Post
    There are historical and logical reasons for all of those points but personally I don't really feel like debating.

    There most certainly are no logical reasons for any of those points. Females are equal to male and there is nothing wrong with homosexuality.




    Quote Originally Posted by NER View Post
    Regarding whether or not I believe in God, I don't really know. The question of creation and how the world came to be is not one I think is that relevant, for example. And regarding God, I don't think one exists solely because I don't think we are important enough for a higher power to care about overseeing and judging us.

    The question of creation and how the world came to be is highly relevant. Modern medicine have tight bonds with evolution. All of science is interconnected to a very high degree. And as an e-sporter I hope I don't have to debate you on the relevance of science? :P
    As for gods existence, if god had existed and were of the omnipotent kind, overseeing us and judging us would be effortless for him. Myself, I don't believe that he exists because there is no proof to suggest that he does. It's the old flying teapot of Bertrand Russell, I'll quote him here because,
    I ought to call myself an agnostic; but, for all practical purposes, I am an atheist. I do not think the existence of the Christian God any more probable than the existence of the Gods of Olympus or Valhalla. To take another illustration: nobody can prove that there is not between the Earth and Mars a china teapot revolving in an elliptical orbit, but nobody thinks this sufficiently likely to be taken into account in practice. I think the Christian God just as unlikely.

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  12. #332

    Default Re: Talk Religion And Be F*king Nice About It

    I see that every discussion about religion invariably turns to "existence of God".

    Personally,i think it's a very reductionist way of going about things.All religion wouldn't become meaningless even if there was no tangible,cohesive entity called God,that isn't the only way how Gods are supposed to be understood.

    maybe Gods are just representation of natural forces and energy?

    If you look back,many gods were based on naturally occurring phenomena.The Egyptians had a huge cult of worship around the Sun God.The Sun as a motif is very prevalent across religions.Some pagans even worship fire,trees,animals,and many other objects.

    Even if you look at Gods that often resemble a human-like figure,they can just be manifestations of various energies/forces in the world.

    so i find that reducing Religion to just a question of "Is God Real? not really useful.Maybe "God" is a device for us to understand the world?maybe it's all a big metaphor?

    If I risk my life for something, if I see both the blood of my friends and enemies being spilled, how can this religion be fake? If I fast from food, drinks, and sex half of my days during Ramadan, how can Islam be fake? You keep fighting (preaching, fasting, praying, doing haj, visiting a church, etc) because it is the only way you can silence your doubts in what you believe in.

    Like I said before, religion is to me anything that one believe in to push them forward and gives their lives reason and validation.
    that's a nice way you put it.
    Last edited by sggupta; June 25th, 2017 at 11:36 AM.
    that which cannot be stopped:inherited will,a man's dream,and the flow of time.as long as man continues to seek out the answer to freedom,these things shall never be stopped.-PK Gol D. Roger

  13. #333
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    Default Re: Talk Religion And Be F*king Nice About It

    Quote Originally Posted by sggupta View Post
    Personally,i think it's a very reductionist way of going about things.All religion wouldn't become meaningless even if there was no tangible,cohesive entity called God,that isn't the only way how Gods are supposed to be understood.

    Dunno about you, but I find it a good idea to establish the more basic facts first. The existence of a god being one such. If you prefer, it could be any supernatural thing though. Any religion claiming such a thing is wrong of course, but as I've said before I don't think that that makes the religion meaningless. There are lots of things I like about religion... But they are wrong and thus I dunno why anyone would bother with them. :p

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  14. #334

    Default Re: Talk Religion And Be F*king Nice About It

    Quote Originally Posted by BWYYWLTGHR View Post
    If you prefer, it could be any supernatural thing though.
    no,not necessarily a "supernatural" thing.maybe you think that what i am referring to is "supernatural",but again that's not necessarily the case.

    As i pointed out,is the Sun supernatural?is fire supernatural?are trees supernatural?

    Nature is not supernatural. And nature gives us energy,we survive by nature.That is not a supernatural concept,that is reality.and nature worship is a part of many religions,past and present

    maybe "energy" is seemingly supernatural to you,but what about human consciousness then?It is a very much real and poorly understood entity,and spirituality and religion both try to make sense of it.maybe they are wrong,maybe they are not.depends on specifics imo.

    but regardless as i said maybe it's all a big metaphor.I find concentrating on being literal about religion can be missing the point completely.
    that which cannot be stopped:inherited will,a man's dream,and the flow of time.as long as man continues to seek out the answer to freedom,these things shall never be stopped.-PK Gol D. Roger

  15. #335
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    Default Re: Talk Religion And Be F*king Nice About It

    Quote Originally Posted by sggupta View Post
    and nature worship is a part of many religions,past and present

    They ascribe supernatural characteristics to them though.




    maybe "energy" is seemingly supernatural to you,but what about human consciousness then?It is a very much real and poorly understood entity,and spirituality and religion both try to make sense of it.maybe they are wrong,maybe they are not.depends on specifics imo.

    I'm not sure what you mean by "energy", but if you speak of energy as in, say, kinetic or thermal, then no, that doesn't seem supernatural at all to me. It's one of the fundamentals of the natural world.
    Human consciousness is nothing but neurons communicating. Science is also trying to figure the brain out.




    but regardless as i said maybe it's all a big metaphor.I find concentrating on being literal about religion can be missing the point completely.

    What is a metaphor for then? And what is the point?

    Holdo is best and everything about Holdo is best.

  16. #336

    Default Re: Talk Religion And Be F*king Nice About It

    Quote Originally Posted by BWYYWLTGHR View Post
    They ascribe supernatural characteristics to them though.
    not necessarily.they just portray them symbolically.Like,what supernatural charactersticks would you need to ascribe to the sun?it is the epitome of power!and even 500 years back,the sun's power was unparalleled.Now you may think it is not that necessary for survival with the advance of technology,but back then it was already akin to a supernatural being

    What is a metaphor for then?

    like for example,poseidon represented the ocean.Indra and ares represents war

    that which cannot be stopped:inherited will,a man's dream,and the flow of time.as long as man continues to seek out the answer to freedom,these things shall never be stopped.-PK Gol D. Roger

  17. #337
    Future good poster NER's Avatar
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    Default Re: Talk Religion And Be F*king Nice About It

    Quote Originally Posted by BWYYWLTGHR View Post
    Two points
    For the first quote: I don't know what I am supposed to say to this exactly

    For the second one: I meant its not relevant in an existential level. I know a lot of folks who went from being Muslims to Atheists/Agnostic, and then back to being Muslims just because the question of where the world came to be daunted them too much and they needed to believe that some mighty being above the cloud created it and gave it (and thus also these individuals existence) a clear definitive purpose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by firelord111 View Post
    I believe that jihad main reason was to encourage people defend themselves when the are attacked and the main purpose of all real religions are so that people live a healthy life and don't kill each other for things like greed
    This is wrong. Mohammad did not condone fighting for the sole purpose of spreading Islam and expanding its territorial presence. On the contrary, dying while in Jihad is one of the greatest things a Muslim can hope to achieve.



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  18. #338

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    The reason prophet had wars was that he and Muslims were being attacked so he in order to stop it he attacked to defend themselves
    Attacking other countries just for expanding religion is wrong nobody is gonna really support a beliefif they lose someone for it

  19. #339

    Default Re: Talk Religion And Be F*king Nice About It

    The expansions of the early Muslims really weren't much about spreading religion anyway, mostly because uh....they didn't really convert the populations they conquered right away. It took a long long time for places like Egypt, North Africa, and the Levant to covert to Islam from Eastern/Oriental Orthodox Christianity. And some people never even did, ergo the Christian populations that still exist in these locations.
    Things were a little different in Iran, because there was less protection given to Zoroastrians, but the main population wasn't exactly ZOROASTRIAN since it was kind of a secretive priest monopoly type religion, rather than something heavily integrated into the lives of day to day people.

    Local Arabian paganism got kiboshed though. But hey if there's one thing all the Abrahamic religions agree on, it was kiboshing pagans.

  20. #340

    Default Re: Talk Religion And Be F*king Nice About It

    Quote Originally Posted by Nilitch View Post
    btw, why aren't "all" Christians doing the Lent like Muslims do the Ramadan?
    Many Christians are very casual with their beliefs and practices. Lent is a pain.

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