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Thread: What did Luffy say?

  1. #261
    Discovered Stowaway andre's Avatar
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    Default Re: What did Luffy say?

    What's the over/under on Luffy's dream having to do with meat?
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  2. #262

    Default Re: What did Luffy say?

    Do we know what Roger enjoyed eating? Like from the vivre cards enciclopedia?

    Well, if Roger said "I want to be the man who eats a whole seakingsalmon" and Luffy said "I want to be the man who eats a whole seakingcow", that is still mostly the same.
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  3. #263

    Default Re: What did Luffy say?

    Only fools chase impossible dreams!

    Then I'll become the King of the Fools!


    That's one of the things Luffy/Roger/a certain BIG figure said.

    Pirates are fools chasing dream to begin with, and the people who doubted them were fools for failing to believe the impossible could be achieved. All are thus fools in the end, and the Pirate King Lord over them all -- The King of the World.

  4. #264
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    Default Re: What did Luffy say?

    Do any of you think Luffy and Roger saying the same thing is a sort of retcon from the first chapter? Reading it and the first couple of volumes makes me think Oda always had the idea in mind that Shanks was a member of Roger's Pirates, but Shanks admission in the first chapter that Luffy acts just like Shanks did when he was a kid makes me think that a more direct link to Shanks was his original intention. Since then, if my recollection is correct, Shanks has only mentioned Luffy's similarity to Roger and that's kind of strange. I do think that Oda certainly always positioned Shanks as giving up his own most direct ambition (to follow in Roger's footsteps) for Luffy's sake, and maybe he had been avoiding such a realization before sacrificing his arm for Luffy.
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  5. #265

    Default Re: What did Luffy say?

    Quote Originally Posted by andre View Post
    Do any of you think Luffy and Roger saying the same thing is a sort of retcon from the first chapter? Reading it and the first couple of volumes makes me think Oda always had the idea in mind that Shanks was a member of Roger's Pirates, but Shanks admission in the first chapter that Luffy acts just like Shanks did when he was a kid makes me think that a more direct link to Shanks was his original intention. Since then, if my recollection is correct, Shanks has only mentioned Luffy's similarity to Roger and that's kind of strange. I do think that Oda certainly always positioned Shanks as giving up his own most direct ambition (to follow in Roger's footsteps) for Luffy's sake, and maybe he had been avoiding such a realization before sacrificing his arm for Luffy.
    It is a little bit of a retcon because Shanks tells Rayleigh that Luffy said the same words as Roger (chapter 506), but that was offscreen too since we didn't see it on chapter 1.

    That said, Luffy has been built up as very similar to Roger since East Blue, so it's natural that Shanks would see Roger in Luffy, but it would not make sense for him to make that remark at that time since Oda didn't want to spill the beans yet.

  6. #266

    Default Re: What did Luffy say?

    Instead of focusing too much on a single possibility, we should consider taking on a Quantum Mechanical approach. They did technically say they wanted to be the King of the Pirates. They probably also said a bunch of other things too. Partial truths that add up to a whole. Fragments.

    Oda's way of saying, "look, all these different possibilities, they all count to some degree!" Emphasis on imagination over dwelling too much on what's impossible.
    Last edited by Ghidorah Guy; January 8th, 2021 at 01:39 PM.

  7. #267

    Default Re: What did Luffy say?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghidorah Guy View Post
    Instead of focusing too much on a single possibility, we should consider taking on a Quantum Mechanical approach. They did technically say they wanted to be the King of the Pirates. They probably also said a bunch of other things too. Partial truths that add up to a whole. Fragments.
    Roger never thought of being the King of Pirates. The concept didn't exist in his mind or in society. It was the newspapers which labeled him Pirate King after he reached Laugh Tale. Roger was even surprised by the title.

    Spoiler:

  8. #268

    Default Re: What did Luffy say?

    Quote Originally Posted by theackwardstation View Post
    Roger never thought of being the King of Pirates. The concept didn't exist in his mind or in society. It was the newspapers which labeled him Pirate King after he reached Laugh Tale. Roger was even surprised by the title.

    That's a lot of semantical creative wordplay that will factor too, involving very loose translations of the Japanese language. There'll probably be loads of instances like this where a character says something which can technically be read one way, but misinterpreted by another party. Like a game of Telephone, but on a socio-cultural scale. So it would've ended up with Roger and Luffy both technically saying the same thing, albeit with different intended meanings.

    I'm not well versed in Japanese by any means, but if you plug in "King of the Fools" into some generic Japanese to English translator, and know some basic Spanish words like oro and mono, you get some interesting results. Take some squinting, but you'll see it. I'm sure Oda will formulate it in a way that makes more sense to someone who can actually read and understand Japanese a lot better...or not, since I'm certain it'll require some very broken interpretation of the grammar too lol. A fool's interpretation, you could say.

    To offer a much simpler and easier to understand model of this concept, take a look at the word gomu. One of various readings of mu is dream. One possible combination of go and mu can then net you five ( go ) and dream ( mu ); five dream. Grammatically broken and loose translation, one could argue, but then so is Laugh Tale, eh?

    Five Dreams.

    That's my theory: All these Foolish Pirate Lords possess/ed multiple dreams. Some were lost, others adopted later in life, evolved over time to take on whole new meanings but remaining ever the same on paper, and others never once strayed from what they originally intended. Luffy's got five. Probably same as Roger, but +1. Roger prob shared his dreams with his predecessor, but added his own to the bunch as well, which fate would decree Luffy would share in turn.

    To wit, Roger, Luffy, and Big Guy were a bunch of "selfish" pirates, so of course they all wanted different things. Each one probably added one of their own to the legacy of inherited dreams, even if some finer details got obscured along the way...kinda like what happens w/regards to truth and history. And yet, the results are still more or less the same despite the differences.

    I want to be the King of the Fools <=> I want to be the King of the Pirates

    Probably even got flipped around in the same scene, looping back in on itself like some Moebius Strip.

    Roger: Then I'll be the King of the Fools! *later* Haha, "King of the Pirates? Nice!"

    Luffy: I'm going to be the King of the Pirates!

    Hahaha, sure, kid. That's an impossible goal for you. And only fools chase impossible dreams!

    Luffy: Grrrr then I'll become the King of the Fools!

    King of Fools ---> King of Pirates ---> King of Fools

  9. #269
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    Default Re: What did Luffy say?

    Quote Originally Posted by theackwardstation View Post
    Roger never thought of being the King of Pirates. The concept didn't exist in his mind or in society. It was the newspapers which labeled him Pirate King after he reached Laugh Tale. Roger was even surprised by the title.

    This page makes me wonder if Oda will have Scopper reveal something about the Will of D. On the other hand, it makes me assume that all will be revealed at Laugh Tale. I definitely hope he enters the story at some point, though.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghidorah Guy View Post
    That's a lot of semantical creative wordplay that will factor too, involving very loose translations of the Japanese language. There'll probably be loads of instances like this where a character says something which can technically be read one way, but misinterpreted by another party. Like a game of Telephone, but on a socio-cultural scale. So it would've ended up with Roger and Luffy both technically saying the same thing, albeit with different intended meanings.

    I'm not well versed in Japanese by any means, but if you plug in "King of the Fools" into some generic Japanese to English translator, and know some basic Spanish words like oro and mono, you get some interesting results. Take some squinting, but you'll see it. I'm sure Oda will formulate it in a way that makes more sense to someone who can actually read and understand Japanese a lot better...or not, since I'm certain it'll require some very broken interpretation of the grammar too lol. A fool's interpretation, you could say.

    To offer a much simpler and easier to understand model of this concept, take a look at the word gomu. One of various readings of mu is dream. One possible combination of go and mu can then net you five ( go ) and dream ( mu ); five dream. Grammatically broken and loose translation, one could argue, but then so is Laugh Tale, eh?

    Five Dreams.

    That's my theory: All these Foolish Pirate Lords possess/ed multiple dreams. Some were lost, others adopted later in life, evolved over time to take on whole new meanings but remaining ever the same on paper, and others never once strayed from what they originally intended. Luffy's got five. Probably same as Roger, but +1. Roger prob shared his dreams with his predecessor, but added his own to the bunch as well, which fate would decree Luffy would share in turn.

    To wit, Roger, Luffy, and Big Guy were a bunch of "selfish" pirates, so of course they all wanted different things. Each one probably added one of their own to the legacy of inherited dreams, even if some finer details got obscured along the way...kinda like what happens w/regards to truth and history. And yet, the results are still more or less the same despite the differences.

    I want to be the King of the Fools <=> I want to be the King of the Pirates

    Probably even got flipped around in the same scene, looping back in on itself like some Moebius Strip.

    Roger: Then I'll be the King of the Fools! *later* Haha, "King of the Pirates? Nice!"

    Luffy: I'm going to be the King of the Pirates!

    Hahaha, sure, kid. That's an impossible goal for you. And only fools chase impossible dreams!

    Luffy: Grrrr then I'll become the King of the Fools!

    King of Fools ---> King of Pirates ---> King of Fools
    That's a fun idea!
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  10. #270

    Default Re: What did Luffy say?

    Yes, it is a fun idea.

  11. #271

    Default Re: What did Luffy say?

    Maybe something like making everyone in the world smile and be free?

  12. #272
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    Default Re: What did Luffy say?

    Hidden is the surprise within the knowledge common to One Piece readers that it has become second nature and habit to define Luffy’s dream with the concept of “King of the Pirates”. Until reading chapter 1000, I was not aware Luffy had another dream. The events in chapter 585 and 966 went completely passed me. I did not even notice declarations the two made could be anything beside being "King of the Pirates" but once you stop and look at those moment in more details it becomes apparent there is something deeper in play. For that reason the content in chapter 1000 was very illuminating to me. The comments Yamato made about Luffy's dream being the same as Rogers and Ace confirming whatever Luffy declared to Sabo and him in the past exist at the end of Luffy's dream to become the King of the Pirates, such dialogue drew my attention to the goal Luffy has beyond being King of the Pirates. So what words were uttered that shocked Oden, Whitebeard, Sabo and Ace and made them laugh (save Oden who couldn’t escape the shock)?

    Spoiler:

    As has been mentioned before in this thread, Shanks had confirmed in the past that the words Luffy said to him were the same as the ones Roger expressed. Words that exist outside Luffy's dream to be the King of the Pirates. Those words Shanks heard, was it during the moment when Shanks gave Luffy the Straw Hat or in a moment that has not been fully revealed yet? Considering the passing on of the Straw Hat to Luffy is meant to signify Shanks’s belief in the next generation to inherit Roger’s will, it was likely the former. Luffy’s statement to Shanks in the docks is potentially what reminded Shanks of the words Roger spoke.

    The declaration Luffy expressed before Shanks passed his Straw Hat onto him had three parts:

    • To one day have a ship and crew better than [the Red Hair Pirates];
    • To have the biggest hoard of treasure in the world; and
    • To be King of the Pirates
    Spoiler:



    The biggest hoard of treasure in the world refers to the One Piece. And given that the title “King of the Pirates” was born when Gol D. Roger sailed the Grandline completely, the latter parts of Luffy’s declaration wouldn’t have been what reminded Shanks of Roger’s words. Which leaves the first of Luffy’s declaration – “to one day have a ship and crew better than yours”. The fact that Shanks echoed what Luffy said – “hmmm…you’re gonna be better than us, huh?” – suggest that part of Luffy’s declaration is what caught his attention the most. Shanks had been inspired by Roger and in turn Shanks at that time may have been aware of what Luffy meant by ‘one day having a crew better than yours’.

    Spoiler:

    To Luffy, Shanks’s Pirate crew was the “strongest” crew he had seen which is why he had initially wanted to join them on their journey and why Luffy defended them from the insults of the bandits. Through the events in chapter 1, Luffy comes to learn about what true “strength” is. Luffy initially thought others making you “look like a weakling” made you a “disgrace to all pirates”. But when Luffy sees Shanks again and learns of the type of “Pirate” he is, Luffy comes to understand what “strength” really means. Luffy understood at that time he was not ready to sail with Shanks and subsequently made the decision to become a pirate on his own. To become a Pirate just like Shanks one day…and to have a crew even “stronger” than his.

    With that in mind, we turn to the statement Luffy expressed in front of Ace and Sabo. But before we look at what Luffy’s declaration could have been, it does seem important to first note what Sabo and Ace expressed as that does appear to influence Luffy in what he said to them following their statements. Sabo talks about preferring the “trash heap” the nobles scorned and despised over the elite district he was born in. Ace talks about becoming a great pirate even if the whole world refuses to accept him and hates him. Luffy in order to substantiate his brothers dreams and establish his own would have communicated a dream aligned with those feelings.

    “I want to be…captain to the most derided/ridiculed/hated pirates in the world.”

    Spoiler:

    Roger as well, prior to the expression of his desire, he talked about reaching the “Final Island”, obtaining the treasure hidden there and becoming the biggest pirate crew in the world. Roger at that time went on to state that upon accomplishing all the above, he would be…something. Roger was aware how the World Government wanted to prevent anyone from reaching the Final Island which means that when they do, they would be targeted by the World. Just like Luffy, Roger could have said:

    “That’s right! And then I’ll be…captain of the most derided/ridiculed/hated pirates in the world.”

    Spoiler:

    After hearing Roger’s words, Oden’s perspective on the world changed. Move forward a few years when Oden has to sacrifice his pride in order to save the Wano citizens – he had no issue being the fool and being mocked and scorned.

    Once the Roger returned from Laugh Tale and news got out that Roger Pirates had sailed the Grandline completely, the whole world targeted them. Their accomplishment had caused a stir around the world and prompted the Marines into action. The majority of “society” also despised Roger and his crew for inspiring such a “dangerous” and “lawless” era.


    It appears that once a Pirate crew reaches the Final Island of the Grandline – Laugh Tale – they will become the crew most derided by the world. Which would explain why Ace mentioned to Yamato that Luffy’s declaration made when they were kids existed at the end of his little brother’s dream (to be the King of the Pirates).


    Every single Straw Hat Pirate has been mocked and scorned. Yet they continue forward, pursuing their dream.

    What Luffy initially perceived as a weakness had been rewritten into a strength that Luffy admires thanks to Shanks. Luffy hopes to be just like Shanks in the future. The Shanks that sacrificed an arm to save him on that day all those years ago.

    Spoiler:







    When Luffy told Shanks he would one day find a crew as strong as his, he really meant it. A crew that didn’t bother getting laughed at or being scorned. A crew that despite the rejection of the world, continued forward, laughing and having an adventure.
    A crew that could express their dreams, no matter how mundane, and not concern themselves with the public perception surrounding it.

    Luffy and Roger’s dream that had remained a mystery does not have to be a new revelation. It is a dream that has already been ingrained in the pages of One Piece. A dream that has existed within the readers mind from the very first chapter.

    Spoiler:











    I have always loved stories where something negative is reinterpreted and redefined as a strength. That is one of the reasons why Naruto is my favourite shonen protagonist. Thank you Naruto (and Kishimoto) for turning the word "fool" into something empowering and inspirational.

    Spoiler:

  13. #273
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    Default Re: What did Luffy say?

    I like the party theory, but I also feel like the name Laugh Tale is staring us right in the face. Luffy wants to be able to tell the best joke there is.
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  14. #274

    Default Re: What did Luffy say?

    Quote Originally Posted by Syphin View Post
    Hidden is the surprise within the knowledge common to One Piece readers that it has become second nature and habit to define Luffy’s dream with the concept of “King of the Pirates”. Until reading chapter 1000, I was not aware Luffy had another dream. The events in chapter 585 and 966 went completely passed me. I did not even notice declarations the two made could be anything beside being "King of the Pirates" but once you stop and look at those moment in more details it becomes apparent there is something deeper in play. For that reason the content in chapter 1000 was very illuminating to me. The comments Yamato made about Luffy's dream being the same as Rogers and Ace confirming whatever Luffy declared to Sabo and him in the past exist at the end of Luffy's dream to become the King of the Pirates, such dialogue drew my attention to the goal Luffy has beyond being King of the Pirates. So what words were uttered that shocked Oden, Whitebeard, Sabo and Ace and made them laugh (save Oden who couldn’t escape the shock)?


    As has been mentioned before in this thread, Shanks had confirmed in the past that the words Luffy said to him were the same as the ones Roger expressed. Words that exist outside Luffy's dream to be the King of the Pirates. Those words Shanks heard, was it during the moment when Shanks gave Luffy the Straw Hat or in a moment that has not been fully revealed yet? Considering the passing on of the Straw Hat to Luffy is meant to signify Shanks’s belief in the next generation to inherit Roger’s will, it was likely the former. Luffy’s statement to Shanks in the docks is potentially what reminded Shanks of the words Roger spoke.

    The declaration Luffy expressed before Shanks passed his Straw Hat onto him had three parts:

    • To one day have a ship and crew better than [the Red Hair Pirates];
    • To have the biggest hoard of treasure in the world; and
    • To be King of the Pirates

    The biggest hoard of treasure in the world refers to the One Piece. And given that the title “King of the Pirates” was born when Gol D. Roger sailed the Grandline completely, the latter parts of Luffy’s declaration wouldn’t have been what reminded Shanks of Roger’s words. Which leaves the first of Luffy’s declaration – “to one day have a ship and crew better than yours”. The fact that Shanks echoed what Luffy said – “hmmm…you’re gonna be better than us, huh?” – suggest that part of Luffy’s declaration is what caught his attention the most. Shanks had been inspired by Roger and in turn Shanks at that time may have been aware of what Luffy meant by ‘one day having a crew better than yours’.


    To Luffy, Shanks’s Pirate crew was the “strongest” crew he had seen which is why he had initially wanted to join them on their journey and why Luffy defended them from the insults of the bandits. Through the events in chapter 1, Luffy comes to learn about what true “strength” is. Luffy initially thought others making you “look like a weakling” made you a “disgrace to all pirates”. But when Luffy sees Shanks again and learns of the type of “Pirate” he is, Luffy comes to understand what “strength” really means. Luffy understood at that time he was not ready to sail with Shanks and subsequently made the decision to become a pirate on his own. To become a Pirate just like Shanks one day…and to have a crew even “stronger” than his.

    With that in mind, we turn to the statement Luffy expressed in front of Ace and Sabo. But before we look at what Luffy’s declaration could have been, it does seem important to first note what Sabo and Ace expressed as that does appear to influence Luffy in what he said to them following their statements. Sabo talks about preferring the “trash heap” the nobles scorned and despised over the elite district he was born in. Ace talks about becoming a great pirate even if the whole world refuses to accept him and hates him. Luffy in order to substantiate his brothers dreams and establish his own would have communicated a dream aligned with those feelings.

    “I want to be…captain to the most derided/ridiculed/hated pirates in the world.”


    Roger as well, prior to the expression of his desire, he talked about reaching the “Final Island”, obtaining the treasure hidden there and becoming the biggest pirate crew in the world. Roger at that time went on to state that upon accomplishing all the above, he would be…something. Roger was aware how the World Government wanted to prevent anyone from reaching the Final Island which means that when they do, they would be targeted by the World. Just like Luffy, Roger could have said:

    “That’s right! And then I’ll be…captain of the most derided/ridiculed/hated pirates in the world.”


    After hearing Roger’s words, Oden’s perspective on the world changed. Move forward a few years when Oden has to sacrifice his pride in order to save the Wano citizens – he had no issue being the fool and being mocked and scorned.

    Once the Roger returned from Laugh Tale and news got out that Roger Pirates had sailed the Grandline completely, the whole world targeted them. Their accomplishment had caused a stir around the world and prompted the Marines into action. The majority of “society” also despised Roger and his crew for inspiring such a “dangerous” and “lawless” era.


    It appears that once a Pirate crew reaches the Final Island of the Grandline – Laugh Tale – they will become the crew most derided by the world. Which would explain why Ace mentioned to Yamato that Luffy’s declaration made when they were kids existed at the end of his little brother’s dream (to be the King of the Pirates).


    Every single Straw Hat Pirate has been mocked and scorned. Yet they continue forward, pursuing their dream.

    What Luffy initially perceived as a weakness had been rewritten into a strength that Luffy admires thanks to Shanks. Luffy hopes to be just like Shanks in the future. The Shanks that sacrificed an arm to save him on that day all those years ago.


    When Luffy told Shanks he would one day find a crew as strong as his, he really meant it. A crew that didn’t bother getting laughed at or being scorned. A crew that despite the rejection of the world, continued forward, laughing and having an adventure.
    A crew that could express their dreams, no matter how mundane, and not concern themselves with the public perception surrounding it.

    Luffy and Roger’s dream that had remained a mystery does not have to be a new revelation. It is a dream that has already been ingrained in the pages of One Piece. A dream that has existed within the readers mind from the very first chapter.


    I have always loved stories where something negative is reinterpreted and redefined as a strength. That is one of the reasons why Naruto is my favourite shonen protagonist. Thank you Naruto (and Kishimoto) for turning the word "fool" into something empowering and inspirational.

    Spoiler:
    Yes indeedy.

    To bolster you point, just look at Luffy and Sanji's recent brief game of one-upsmanship. A competitive streak w/ ludicrous challenges on the table.

    There's also definitely an element of embracing negative perceptions too.

    To add to the list of hypothetical scenarios that might've took place, maybe all unique conversations Luffy and/or the others had with their friends. What Luffy said to Sabo, Ace, etc. may not be the same as what he declared to Shanks et al.

    Everyone will envy you and hate you for it if you succeed, you know?

    Then I'll become the most hated person on Earth! Let them try to surpass me!


    The irony here is that people become inspired by this person.
    -----

    Everyone will come look to take all your treasure from you and fight over it!

    Then I'll just give it all away! I'll become the poorest man alive!


    ----

    They're going to laugh at you!

    Then I'll become the world's greatest clown that'll make the whole world laugh!


    Those who laughed at the clown are thus clowns themselves and are now obliged to have a good-natured laugh at themselves. World's biggest joke.


    -------

    And how do you plan to surpass XXXXX, huh? He's already traveled the whole world!

    Then I'll go where nobody's gone before! I'LL GO TO THE MOON!


    That last one was Roger. That's where "Laugh Tale" is. Straight Baron Munchausen traveling to the moon. Previously, his predecessor probably thought Roadstar was the last stop on the grandline before learning otherwise. Now it'll Luffy's turn to surpass Roger by going somewhere even he couldn't go.

    That's the thing. The goal post's position keeps changing as the limits of imagination keep getting... stretched. "Laugh Tale" is not the final island. And no, it's not the final frontier either, that's EOS :\/

    Which is why when Blackbeard inevitably becomes Pirate King by being the first to return from Laugh Tale in the public eye, fate will give the Strawhats a 2nd chance at resurrecting a broken dream by evolving it into a new one. Cause even if one is "cheated" out of their dream, have it spoiled, or someone else achieve sit in your stead, doesn't mean one can't pick themselves up and find a new one. Kinda like Montblanc Cricket! Mission accomplished to an extent, on to the next one!

  15. #275

    Default Re: What did Luffy say?

    Yeah I also didn't notice Luffy had a 2nd dream until chapter 1000. That was the big reveal of the chapter to me, though now I notice the fandom was already speculating on that.

    I'm pretty sure it's not "be the freest an in the seas" which is what the most popular theory seems to be. First, it's not really that child, and it's not something I expect 7 year old Luffy to care about. Also I think he has said it before, which makes it a bad surprise.

    Whatever it is, it's silly. I think I might as wel go with meat related.

  16. #276

    Default Re: What did Luffy say?

    We'll know when he'll see Shanks again probably.
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  17. #277

    Default Re: What did Luffy say?

    I'm with Arthur on this one, I think both Roger and Luffy want to have a party with the whole world.

  18. #278
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    Default Re: What did Luffy say?

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Quichotte De Flamingo View Post
    So my guess is that Luffy said he wants to be the pirateking, so that he is free enough to fulfill the dreams of others.
    Like a certain dream a man name JoyBoy had hundred of years ago and also Gol.D.Roger.
    Joy Boy wanted to fulfill the dream of the fishman, but wasn´t able to, but he promised it would happpen.
    That certainly is a possibility, but I don't know I don't see Ace, Sabo and even less Edward laughing at such a declaration "I want to fulfill the dreams of my crewmate !" And Edward Newgate : gurahaha what are you ? A child

    It's still a possibility, but it wouldn't really match with whitebeard character.
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  19. #279

    Default Re: What did Luffy say?

    I don't think that throwing the biggest party is his end goal. First and foremost, partying is all Luffy does. Even 20 chapters prior, he claims that he wants to throw the biggest party ever after they beat Kaido. We should also consider that Roger thought he'd accomplish his dream after finding Laugh Tale and the big treasure. Did Roger throw the biggest party ? I'm pretty sure he didn't. So it has to be something else. I think we might get some other glimpse later in this arc to think about it again but partying is doesn't seem like the choice to me.


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