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Thread: Which Characters Will Die Between Now and the End of the Series?

  1. #81
    The villain eternal. Kylor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which Characters Will Die Between Now and the End of the Series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey King View Post
    I think most people who buy into this theory also buy into a kill off of Shanks and many of his crew, as well as Blackbeard being the final villain. Things I certainly all agree on. Given those theories all being related...
    People seem to agree that the BB crew taking down Shanks and crew would happened not long before the Strawhats reach Raftel.
    And also that the final Blackbeard crew fight would be the very last series of battles in the entire series. So naturally together that means there's some important crunch time between Mihawk going down and Zoro confronting Shiryu for the last duel.
    And if it wasn't clear, I think most subscribers to these theories would also agree that Mihawk being taken down would probably take place during the same fight that takes down Shanks and company. The Shanks/Mihawk connection is heavily established by now so it's hardly farfetched.
    You raise some fair points, and your logic certainly is sound, but I think you might be overlooking a distinct possibility. I do agree that the fight against Blackbeard and friends will be the final conflict in the story, but you might be taking it too much for granted that Zoro's final battle has to be the one where he gains his title. I think there's also a chance that Zoro will fulfill his dream before that point, at least partially. What if, Zoro fights and defeats Mihawk at some point before Raftel, giving us the "fair duel for the title" that's been promised since pretty much day one, and then his battle against Shiliew would be his first battle to defend the title of World's Greatest Swordsman?

    Mihawk's been pretty much established as Zoro's ultimate challenge to overcome since the beginning. Remember, Mihawk's more than just a title holder, Oda's built him up as being the absolute pinnacle of everything a swordsman should be. As far back as Baratie, he was the sole indicator of just how far the Straw Hats would eventually need to come. He's Zoro's counterpart to the guy Luffy's been trying to surpass since the first chapter! Not to mention, he's a character that actually holds a degree of importance to the plot. What would be more interesting to read, a climatic battle against someone who's basically an unbeatable sword god, or another standard revenge fight, against that one guy from like three pages in Impel Down? Remember, this should be the absolute high point of Zoro's character arc, and who the opponent is will absolutely have an impact on this. Shiliew just simply doesn't have much going for him, besides just being another villain. Certainly not enough to be to Zoro what Blackbeard's going to be to Luffy.

    On the other hand, if Zoro's final final fight in the storyline is used to fully show how far he's come since the first volume, that would mean something, and a great way to do that would be to show that he's not only the best, but he's able to maintain that role against a powerful opponent. Wouldn't that, more than anything else, cement him as a swordsman whose "name will be known in heaven?" Oda might even directly mirror his initial fight against Mihawk by having Zoro toy with Shiliew the same way Mihawk toyed with Zoro when they first faced off. It would be an oversight, I think, to just assume that such a scenario couldn't have as much of an impact, particularly if Oda plays it right.

  2. #82

    Default Re: Which Characters Will Die Between Now and the End of the Series?

    Quote Originally Posted by omy785 View Post
    A cliché is something supposedly typical, a repetition well...don't need to explain it. Death and revenge of mentor figures seems to be repeated a little too much...after a while it might get boring.
    Yeah still not seeing the difference here.

  3. #83

    Default Re: Which Characters Will Die Between Now and the End of the Series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey King View Post
    Yeah still not seeing the difference here.
    Too bad, it seemed quite simple to me

  4. #84

    Default Re: Which Characters Will Die Between Now and the End of the Series?

    Cliché is only cliché when someone admits it is.

  5. #85

    Default Re: Which Characters Will Die Between Now and the End of the Series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kylor View Post
    You raise some fair points, and your logic certainly is sound, but I think you might be overlooking a distinct possibility. I do agree that the fight against Blackbeard and friends will be the final conflict in the story, but you might be taking it too much for granted that Zoro's final battle has to be the one where he gains his title. I think there's also a chance that Zoro will fulfill his dream before that point, at least partially. What if, Zoro fights and defeats Mihawk at some point before Raftel, giving us the "fair duel for the title" that's been promised since pretty much day one, and then his battle against Shiliew would be his first battle to defend the title of World's Greatest Swordsman?
    It would render his last fight weak and boring in comparison.
    Mihawk's been pretty much established as Zoro's ultimate challenge to overcome since the beginning.
    Yeah? So what?
    Remember, Mihawk's more than just a title holder, Oda's built him up as being the absolute pinnacle of everything a swordsman should be.
    Why yes, Oda has built up as an honorable likeable chap who even agreed to train Zoro. The fight for the title won't be a bloody death battle where we highly desire to see Zoro win. Good point.
    As far back as Baratie, he was the sole indicator of just how far the Straw Hats would eventually need to come. He's Zoro's counterpart to the guy Luffy's been trying to surpass since the first chapter!
    Fitting if they both died at the same point in the story yeah.
    That'll be at least TWO very personal reasons to bring down the BB crew.
    Not to mention, he's a character that actually holds a degree of importance to the plot.
    You say this as if the BB crew isn't lol.
    What would be more interesting to read, a climatic battle against someone who's basically an unbeatable sword god, or another standard revenge fight, against that one guy from like three pages in Impel Down?
    1. You say this like there's something fresh and original about a showdown between honorable swordsmen that isn't every single bit as cliche as a revenge plot.
    2. You for absolutely no reason assume we won't see Shiryu until then. Like Oda's done with him. Obviously not true.
    3. That unbeatable sword god is also a friendly guy on essentially the same larger side as our heroes. The only stakes at hand in that duel is Zoro's dream.
    Remember, this should be the absolute high point of Zoro's character arc, and who the opponent is will absolutely have an impact on this. Shiliew just simply doesn't have much going for him, besides just being another villain. Certainly not enough to be to Zoro what Blackbeard's going to be to Luffy.
    So you really think you can argue like Oda's never developing anything with Shiryu again. That sure is a sturdy ground to operate from!
    On the other hand, if Zoro's final final fight in the storyline is used to fully show how far he's come since the first volume, that would mean something, and a great way to do that would be to show that he's not only the best, but he's able to maintain that role against a powerful opponent.
    Yeah that's the same boring awkward logic the other guy made. No that doesn't even remotely cut it compared to making the fight for the title, have it wrapped into the mega finale battles, with a chance to avenge Mihawk.
    Sorry!
    Main problem here is Zoro is not the underdog in that fight. Instant loss of comparable drama and stakes by a thousand.
    Wouldn't that, more than anything else, cement him as a swordsman whose "name will be known in heaven?
    No.
    " Oda might even directly mirror his initial fight against Mihawk by having Zoro toy with Shiliew the same way Mihawk toyed with Zoro when they first faced off.
    That sounds absolutely horrible.
    The big serious final series of battles with everything on the line, and Zoro toys with his opponent who is then made to look weak and incompetent.
    That's really bad.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by omy785 View Post
    Too bad, it seemed quite simple to me
    One is a word that means the same thing as a made up alternate definition of the word "repetition" that you're offering us.
    The difference doesn't exist. You're trying to force in a sense of quality of one and negativity of the other, which is pointless.

  6. #86

    Default Re: Which Characters Will Die Between Now and the End of the Series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey King View Post
    One is a word that means the same thing as a made up alternate definition of the word "repetition" that you're offering us.
    The difference doesn't exist. You're trying to force in a sense of quality of one and negativity of the other, which is pointless.
    No, it's not. I'm not forcing anything, I'm just stating there's a difference between the two, if you don't see it it's not my fault. I'll use an exemple, maybe it makes it easier. A cliché is having a protagonist who eats a lot, or having a hot girl with big boobs as friend or revenging your mentor. If you have 10 times someone who revenges his mentor, thats a repetition...
    Last edited by omy785; March 16th, 2016 at 04:20 PM.

  7. #87
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    Default Re: Which Characters Will Die Between Now and the End of the Series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kylor View Post
    You raise some fair points, and your logic certainly is sound, but I think you might be overlooking a distinct possibility. I do agree that the fight against Blackbeard and friends will be the final conflict in the story, but you might be taking it too much for granted that Zoro's final battle has to be the one where he gains his title. I think there's also a chance that Zoro will fulfill his dream before that point, at least partially. What if, Zoro fights and defeats Mihawk at some point before Raftel, giving us the "fair duel for the title" that's been promised since pretty much day one, and then his battle against Shiliew would be his first battle to defend the title of World's Greatest Swordsman?

    Mihawk's been pretty much established as Zoro's ultimate challenge to overcome since the beginning. Remember, Mihawk's more than just a title holder, Oda's built him up as being the absolute pinnacle of everything a swordsman should be. As far back as Baratie, he was the sole indicator of just how far the Straw Hats would eventually need to come. He's Zoro's counterpart to the guy Luffy's been trying to surpass since the first chapter! Not to mention, he's a character that actually holds a degree of importance to the plot. What would be more interesting to read, a climatic battle against someone who's basically an unbeatable sword god, or another standard revenge fight, against that one guy from like three pages in Impel Down? Remember, this should be the absolute high point of Zoro's character arc, and who the opponent is will absolutely have an impact on this. Shiliew just simply doesn't have much going for him, besides just being another villain. Certainly not enough to be to Zoro what Blackbeard's going to be to Luffy.

    On the other hand, if Zoro's final final fight in the storyline is used to fully show how far he's come since the first volume, that would mean something, and a great way to do that would be to show that he's not only the best, but he's able to maintain that role against a powerful opponent. Wouldn't that, more than anything else, cement him as a swordsman whose "name will be known in heaven?" Oda might even directly mirror his initial fight against Mihawk by having Zoro toy with Shiliew the same way Mihawk toyed with Zoro when they first faced off. It would be an oversight, I think, to just assume that such a scenario couldn't have as much of an impact, particularly if Oda plays it right.
    Someone else surpassing Mihawk before Zoro would be more interesting imo. That person being Shilliew makes sense for plot reasons. It won't change anything when it comes to Zoro's goal. He wants to defeat the world's strongest swordsman to get that title for himself. He doesn't care if its Mihawk, Shilliew or Buggy that hold the title.

    His fight with Mihawk being set up as far back as the baratie is precisely what makes this scenario so delicious to the people who support it. It would be heartbreaking for Zoro AND the readers if someone else defeated Mihawk, and Zoro's student/mentor relationship with Mihawk will just add fuel to the fire. There are also the small details like Daaz Bones asking Zoro if he plans to become a man who can cut diamond, Mihawk being unable to cut Diamond Jozu at the War of the Best and since this chapter, the BB pirates defeating the remains of the WB pirates. I'm really interested to see where Oda takes this.

    I can't get behind Zoro's last fight and the fight with the main antagonist to be one where he's gonna toy around with his opponent. I mean, yeah, right now Zoro doesn't care about Shilliew and if they were to fight now he would just be another guy he has to beat, but that's the point. These events will make the battle more personal and emotionally charged.

  8. #88

    Default Re: Which Characters Will Die Between Now and the End of the Series?

    Quote Originally Posted by omy785 View Post
    No, it's not.
    It is neither in the dictionary nor have ever heard anyone ever use the word the way you are. So yeah it indisputably a new synonym you're making up for "cliche". Really not sure why you're bothering to do that when "cliche" already exists for your use??
    A cliché is having a protagonist who eats a lot, or having a hot girl with big boobs as friend or revenging your mentor. If you have 10 times someone who revenges his mentor, thats a repetition...
    How do you think those things became cliches in the first place lolll.

  9. #89

    Default Re: Which Characters Will Die Between Now and the End of the Series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey King View Post
    It is neither in the dictionary nor have ever heard anyone ever use the word the way you are. So yeah it indisputably a new synonym you're making up for "cliche". Really not sure why you're bothering to do that when "cliche" already exists for your use??


    How do you think those things became cliches in the first place lolll.
    Loool, I'm saying when that happens 10 times in the same manga, that's not a cliché that's a repetition, it gets boring. lolooll lolooo ll lll oll

  10. #90

    Default Re: Which Characters Will Die Between Now and the End of the Series?

    Quote Originally Posted by omy785 View Post
    Loool, I'm saying when that happens 10 times in the same manga, that's not a cliché that's a repetition. lolooll lolooo ll lll oll
    No it's still a cliche. Please use the words that already exist, that's why they're there.

    But uh further to the point. Are you saying One Piece itself is filled with mentors being avenged? It isn't. So what are you talking about?

  11. #91

    Default Re: Which Characters Will Die Between Now and the End of the Series?

    I'm sorry, but this promise:
    http://mangasee.co/manga/?series=One...ndex=1&page=12
    and the history that's been built up between Zoro and Mihawk being passed up for Shilliew just doesn't appeal to me. What's so great about Shilliew that people would rather see Zoro vs him as Zoro's fight? It's not like it's Balckbeard, who's got a very well fleshed out history with Luffy.
    "Don't speak ill of Zoro."

  12. #92

    Default Re: Which Characters Will Die Between Now and the End of the Series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Owain View Post
    I'm sorry, but this promise:
    http://mangasee.co/manga/?series=One...ndex=1&page=12
    and the history that's been built up between Zoro and Mihawk being passed up for Shilliew just doesn't appeal to me. What's so great about Shilliew that people would rather see Zoro vs him as Zoro's fight? It's not like it's Balckbeard, who's got a very well fleshed out history with Luffy.
    Cool another guy hanging his argument on the idea that Oda won't develop Shiryu anymore then we've already seen.
    Good sensible guess that Oda is done building up the main villain group.

  13. #93

    Default Re: Which Characters Will Die Between Now and the End of the Series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey King View Post
    No it's still a cliche. Please use the words that already exist, that's why they're there.

    But uh further to the point. Are you saying One Piece itself is filled with mentors being avenged? It isn't. So what are you talking about?
    Well, it is full of mentors avenged or trying to be avenged...Nojiko, Hillulk, Tom, Fisher Tiger, etc.

  14. #94
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    Default Re: Which Characters Will Die Between Now and the End of the Series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Owain View Post
    I'm sorry, but this promise:
    http://mangasee.co/manga/?series=One...ndex=1&page=12
    and the history that's been built up between Zoro and Mihawk being passed up for Shilliew just doesn't appeal to me. What's so great about Shilliew that people would rather see Zoro vs him as Zoro's fight? It's not like it's Balckbeard, who's got a very well fleshed out history with Luffy.
    I don't know, Shilliew not even caring about the title and killing Mihawk in cold blood just because he's a guy he has to beat at that point in time seems infinitely more interesting than Zoro dueling his mentor to see if he's finally surpassed him. Imo, all tension between those two went out the window when he Mihawk agreed to train Zoro. Zoro will still be fulfilling that promise if he defeats the one man Mihawk couldn't.

  15. #95

    Default Re: Which Characters Will Die Between Now and the End of the Series?

    Quote Originally Posted by omy785 View Post
    Well, it is full of mentors avenged or trying to be avenged...Nojiko, Hillulk, Tom, Fisher Tiger, etc.
    -Nami never really had a revenge fascination with Arlong over BELLMERE (Nojiko is the sister). Her conflict with Arlong was over freeing her village. And then of course she didn't fight or try to fight Arlong after that so this is really a total non-example.
    -Chopper did a bit with Hiruluk but it was pretty thin given how Hiruluk was already dying and actually killed himself before anyone else could. I don't think Chopper even ever accused Wapol of murder or talked about revenge or any of that. And once again Chopper didn't really full on fight Wapol much, and certainly didn't finish him off. Dalton had much more of a blood hatred for Wapol then Chopper did.
    -Franky had no revenge fascination over Spandam. The most that came down to was giving him a really big punch at one point or something like that I think? There was no seething fury when they were together in Enies Lobby, mostly it was just quick gags of Franky chomping on his head as I recall. Spandam got taken out by Usopp and kinda later Robin. Ultimately he wasn't any kind of obsession for Franky at all.
    -The only person who became obsessed with revenge for Fisher Tiger was...Arlong. And it was like a few pages of him being captured by Kizaru for going back to kill everyone in that village.

    So yeah none of these are actually examples of revenge plots. I'm starting to think you don't know what a revenge plot actually is. Ever read Berserk? Or hell...Naruto??

  16. #96

    Default Re: Which Characters Will Die Between Now and the End of the Series?

    Quote Originally Posted by DatYute View Post
    I don't know, Shilliew not even caring about the title and killing Mihawk in cold blood just because he's a guy he has to beat at that point in time seems infinitely more interesting than Zoro dueling his mentor to see if he's finally surpassed him. Imo, all tension between those two went out the window when he Mihawk agreed to train Zoro. Zoro will still be fulfilling that promise if he defeats the one man Mihawk couldn't.
    Training that ended with Zoro missing an eye, and training thats purpose was to surpass Mihawk. Theres still plenty of tension there

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey King View Post
    Cool another guy hanging his argument on the idea that Oda won't develop Shiryu anymore then we've already seen.
    Good sensible guess that Oda is done building up the main villain group.
    No, it's based on me doubting that any relationship between Shilliew and Zoro can come close to the one that's been built up between Zoro and Mihawk. And that Oda can do better than simple REVENGE!!!
    "Don't speak ill of Zoro."

  17. #97
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    Default Re: Which Characters Will Die Between Now and the End of the Series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Owain View Post
    Training that ended with Zoro missing an eye, and training thats purpose was to surpass Mihawk. Theres still plenty of tension there
    I just don't see it. Likewise I wouldn't feel any real tension between Luffy and Shanks even if Shanks was who stood in his way to finding one piece. I'm pretty interested to see where Oda goes with this though.

  18. #98

    Default Re: Which Characters Will Die Between Now and the End of the Series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey King View Post
    -Nami never really had a revenge fascination with Arlong over BELLMERE (Nojiko is the sister). Her conflict with Arlong was over freeing her village. And then of course she didn't fight or try to fight Arlong after that so this is really a total non-example.
    -Chopper did a bit with Hiruluk but it was pretty thin given how Hiruluk was already dying and actually killed himself before anyone else could. I don't think Chopper even ever accused Wapol of murder or talked about revenge or any of that. And once again Chopper didn't really full on fight Wapol much, and certainly didn't finish him off. Dalton had much more of a blood hatred for Wapol then Chopper did.
    -Franky had no revenge fascination over Spandam. The most that came down to was giving him a really big punch at one point or something like that I think? There was no seething fury when they were together in Enies Lobby, mostly it was just quick gags of Franky chomping on his head as I recall. Spandam got taken out by Usopp and kinda later Robin. Ultimately he wasn't any kind of obsession for Franky at all.
    -The only person who became obsessed with revenge for Fisher Tiger was...Arlong. And it was like a few pages of him being captured by Kizaru for going back to kill everyone in that village.

    So yeah none of these are actually examples of revenge plots. I'm starting to think you don't know what a revenge plot actually is. Ever read Berserk? Or hell...Naruto??
    Oh yeah, because Zoro's revenge plot will be much more complicated. Nobody is talking about coming up with a plan or plot, it's just what the outline is and that's it, obviously the details are never gonna be the same, anlysing them is pointless. Hell, even right now Momo would like to renvenge his father, if that's not common then I don't know what is

  19. #99

    Default Re: Which Characters Will Die Between Now and the End of the Series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Owain View Post

    No, it's based on me doubting that any relationship between Shilliew and Zoro can come close to the one that's been built up between Zoro and Mihawk. And that Oda can do better than simple REVENGE!!!
    Cool another guy asserting "fated duel with an honorable opponent" is somehow not the same exact level of cliche as "fated duel to avenge a loved one".

    Also you realize that argueing that Oda has built something close and emotional with Mihawk doesn't hurt the revenge plot argument? It functions off it!

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by omy785 View Post
    Oh yeah, because Zoro's revenge plot will be much more complicated.
    Well it will be a revenge plot, something none of those other things you listed were.
    Nobody is talking about coming up with a plan or plot, it's just what the outline is and that's it, obviously the details are never gonna be the same, anlysing them is pointless. Hell, even right now Momo would like to renvenge his father, if that's not common then I don't know what is
    True, Momo definitely wants revenge. But yeah I highly doubt he'll be the one to take down the Shogun and definitely not Kaidou.

    Hey y'know what though, by this same logic I could argue that Oda won't have a fated oath kept for mutually respecting people to meet again some day. Even if I adjusted that for suggestion that they will have to compete with each-other there's a rich tapestry of examples as far back as there being at least TWO in the first volume alone (Shanks and Coby).
    But yeah since unlike you I grasp that One Piece lives by and thrives by carefully respecting and celebrating time honored adventure story and shonen cliches? I will not be arguing that Mihawk won't meet Zoro "because it's cliche".

  20. #100

    Default Re: Which Characters Will Die Between Now and the End of the Series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey King View Post

    True, Momo definitely wants revenge. But yeah I highly doubt he'll be the one to take down the Shogun and definitely not Kaidou.
    How does that matter?
    Hey y'know what though, by this same logic I could argue that Oda won't have a fated oath kept for mutually respecting people to meet again some day. Even if I adjusted that for suggestion that they will have to compete with each-other there's a rich tapestry of examples as far back as there being at least TWO in the first volume alone (Shanks and Coby).
    But yeah since unlike you I grasp that One Piece lives by and thrives by carefully respecting and celebrating time honored adventure story and shonen cliches? I will not be arguing that Mihawk won't meet Zoro "because it's cliche".
    Whatever makes you happy, I guess...

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