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Thread: Indecision 2016 - In Soviet Russia, we elect american president!

  1. #4321

    Default Re: Indecision 2016 - The one with the most votes wins, right?

    Democratic delegates are split into two categories: about 4,000 pledged delegates that are apportioned by state primaries and caucuses, and another ~750 superdelegates appointed by the Democratic party to vote for whomever they choose as a means of adding a bit of regulation to the process. The vast majority of superdelegates have said that they will vote for Hillary at the Convention, something that Bernie supporters decry as undemocratic (it is, but a political party is technically a private organization and has no obligation beyond public opinion to choose its nominee democratically).

    Including "committed" superdelegates, Hillary has more than half the necessary votes to secure the nomination, but superdelegates are technically unpledged until the Convention so they can always change their mind. However, after California Hillary will also have won more than half the 4,000 pledged delegates that are meant to reflect the will of the people; she will still be shy of the 2,383 total votes needed to secure the nomination if one is only counting pledged delegates, though.

    Bernie's sole hope is that he can convince almost all of the superdelegates to vote for him instead, in the process going against the popular vote and overriding the process of the public primary system. The superdelegates might be undemocratic, but they've never actually gone against the popular vote since their establishment. And frankly, they're not about to start for a radical candidate who's spent most of his recent career as an independent.

    So Hillary's won the popular vote and a majority of the pledged delegates and she should have the nomination locked up if superdelegates vote as expected. Bernie's not mathematically eliminated, but he can't win barring a monumental party coup that would be profoundly undemocratic.

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  2. #4322

    Default Re: Indecision 2016 - The one with the most votes wins, right?

    It's the same as it was THREE MONTHS AGO. Bernie lost a long long time ago, he's just not willing to admit it until the final deadline because he's hoping Hillary has a heart attack in the meantime or something.

    Hillary officially has the numbers to win,and has won the majority by every possible metric, and by quite a bit. Barring some amazingly shady things going down in the Sander's camp at the finish line.

    This is no longer about democracy and having every voice heard, this is about not liking the result and trying to give the race to Trump.
    Last edited by Robby; June 8th, 2016 at 04:25 AM.
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  3. #4323

    Default Re: Indecision 2016 - The one with the most votes wins, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    It's the same as it was THREE MONTHS AGO. Bernie lost a long long time ago, he's just not willing to admit it until the final deadline because he's hoping Hillary has a heart attack in the meantime or something.
    Bernie's just acting like your typical male driver with no sense of direction. Continues to keep driving the car all the while they're either going in circles or heading further down the wrong stretch of road. And won't take the wife's suggestion to pull over and ask for directions embarrassment and complete waste of valuable time and gas be damned.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiq View Post
    I've often wondered about that myself; seems like being supported by people who only want you there so the world can end in fire (with you going to Hell in the process) would be somewhat off-putting
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  4. #4324

    Default Re: Indecision 2016 - The one with the most votes wins, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Zoro View Post
    The feed cut out right as Bernie said "Now, I'm pretty good at arithmatics-" I really wanted to know what his defense of the numbers was. Oh well.

    I was all for Bernie until recent events, and now I'm equally annoyed that some of my friends are going to be going on about how he'll pull through, despite what the "bad media" says.
    Yeah. I have some friends that are being completely irritating about Bernie. I may have to disable Facebook for a few months. They seem to have blinders on.

  5. #4325
    is Stolen Silence's Avatar
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    Default Re: Indecision 2016 - The one with the most votes wins, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Green_vs_Red View Post
    Bernie's just acting like your typical male driver with no sense of direction. Continues to keep driving the car all the while they're either going in circles or heading further down the wrong stretch of road. And won't take the wife's suggestion to pull over and ask for directions embarrassment and complete waste of valuable time and gas be damned.
    Well... I hate to confirm your suspicions but,

    Here Politico goes into what's happening in Bernie Sanders' camp right now.

    Usually aides and staffers wait until the election is over to start dishing up dirt like this; if they're doing it this early, it can only be because they saw the writing on the wall a long time ago.
    Some of them cite concerns that Bernie is shooting himself in the foot with starting fights that evaporate his good will, and not considering alliances that would help him if he should lose.
    And at the center of it all: Bernie, bitter, wounded, and mad as hell. Harry Reid tried to set him up with progressive allies (in competitive districts) to help him in Congress
    and Bernie basically doesn't return the call because he wouldn't support anyone who hadn't endorsed him.

    It's... exactly what I expected was happening in this campaign. Bernie is running the show & so for better or for worse, the mistakes made are his.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wagomu View Post
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  6. #4326
    The Nice Guy Outerspec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Indecision 2016 - Not yet, Snake! It's not over yet!

    Bernie has been buttering up his supporters for weeks now to take the fight to Donald Trump in the general at all costs and hasn't his latest speech made that pretty clear?

    He didn't attack Hillary or say America is screwed. He talked about and kept focus on the issues he has campaigned on which, in no small part, shifted Hillary to the left and then he attacked Donald Trump because he represents the opposite of where we should be headed. He's also firing half his staff very soon because for the last few weeks it hasn't really been about winning, not really, but the message. The message he plans to carry on to the convention. The message of real meaningful change that we shouldn't just resign to the category of "impossible". Now, if he really wanted to hand the election to Donald he would be attacking Hillary but he isn't. Of course he isn't. He'd much rather have Hillary Clinton in office excluding himself.

    If Bernie Sanders continues to stay on his message and attack Donald Trump then I still have no problem with him staying in the race and energizing his base purposefully against Trump. Naturally, Bernie's base will also be adamantly fighting against Hillary to a certain extent and there may be some more words said because Hill and Bern are still opponents but, uh, Donald Trump won't be receiving an endorsement from Bernie Sanders. Hillary Clinton will. When it all comes down to it Bernie Sanders will be saying Hillary Clinton is the person for the job and we should all be doing our best to prevent Donald Trump from taking the white house. Yes, there will be a few Bernie supporters stubborn enough not to vote Hillary or maybe even vote for Trump but the vast majority of Bernie voters will obviously vote for Hillary come general election. Especially more with Bernie's endorsement.
    Everything's Eventual...


  7. #4327

    Default Re: Indecision 2016 - Not yet, Snake! It's not over yet!

    *Every* discussion I've seen at this point is merely pissed about Bernie being cheated and Hillary being evil.

    If it was one or two people it'd be whatever. But every single Bernie supporter I've seen, be it on news sites or facebook or even here, has pretty much declared Hillary the devil, sworn they won't vote for her, and that the system was corrupt and rigged because their guy lost by millions of votes. They seem to only hate Hillary and be pissed at the cheating of the democratic system. I don't see ANYONE going "good game" or "well, at least Bernie pulled her in the right direction."

    NO ONE is discussing "Well, of these two candidates that agree 93%, I guess the one I liked more didn't quite make it, but at least the other choice is pretty close in values", it's much more about Hillary being the face of evil.

    The sheer outrage when she was declared the winner the other day before the last couple states voted was just taken as further indignation and proof of conspiracy to destroy turnout. Nevermind she was ahead by 2 million votes months ago and is ahead by 3 million now. Or 1000 delegates! Three months ago Bernie could have dropped and said "Supers don't count till the end" and everyone would have agreed with that and it would have been a close race, just behind by 50 or a 100. Now, by insisting on going to the final count it's a much more crushing loss.

    If it was neck and neck and there were a few thousand votes difference, in just one location where there were obvious hijinks, like it was with Bush/Gore in 2000, it'd be a different matter entirely, but it's not, and it hasn't been for a long time.

    Nevermind that the longer Bernie does this the more of his goodwill he erodes, the more he mocks the process, the actual will of the people and divides the party. Aside fromt he fact he's not even a democrat and refuses to play ball with anyone in the party, so you really have to wonder how well he would have actually worked with anyone had he done it.

    Take the combative statement after the Nevada showdown.
    “I don’t know who advised him that this was the right route to take, but we are now actively destroying what Bernie worked so hard to build over the last year just to pick up two fucking delegates in a state he lost,” rapid response director Mike Casca complained to Weaver in an internal campaign email obtained by POLITICO.
    I *wanted* him to go through and win it. But it's just... its over man, end this with some dignity.

    This isn’t about what’s good for the Democratic Party in his mind, but about what he thinks is good for advancing the agenda that he’s been pushing since before he got elected mayor of Burlington.
    Last edited by Robby; June 8th, 2016 at 08:21 AM.
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  8. #4328
    The Nice Guy Outerspec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Indecision 2016 - Not yet, Snake! It's not over yet!

    Well, it can't be every single Bernie supporter because I'm a Bernie supporter who supports Hillary Clinton's run for presidency. I think it's just a loud minority of Bernie supporters who compare Hillary to the devil and say they'll even go as far as to vote for Trump. It's like Republicans who don't want gun control and say Obama is trying to take away the 2nd amendment. Obviously, only a minority of Republicans actually mean or say that and most Republicans believe in sensible gun control but the conversation always focuses on the vocal minority. They don't represent the reality.
    Everything's Eventual...


  9. #4329

    Default Re: Indecision 2016 - Not yet, Snake! It's not over yet!

    Don't assume that all Bernie supporters think and feel the same way as the most vocal ones, Robby. Thanks.

  10. #4330

    Default Re: Indecision 2016 - Not yet, Snake! It's not over yet!

    The vocal ones are the only ones being seen. The only ones discussing it, showing any involvement whatsoever. You look at his own websites, the facebook pages, the pages made by his supporters, it consistently comes out the same.


    Yes, obviously it's not 100% of his supporters. I'd still kind of rather it was him than Hillary. The same way not 100% of Republicans are evil. But it's a large enough chunk, the big visible part that talks and gets their message spread and news stories and influences others.

    It doesn't have to be literally every single supporter, if absolutely nothing else, no middleground or sensible speakers are being seen. I don't see *anything* else, and I go a lot of places.

    And even Bernie's own aides are saying he has no plans to support the democrats.

    93% of Republicans are fine decent people more in the middle than the extremes. And so are 93% of Democrats, I lived in Texas. I worked with Republicans with nary an issue. But the extremes, the ones that talk and are active in the process and are the only exposure anyone gets to any of it? That's the problem.

    Top Sanders aides admit that it’s been weeks, if not months, since they themselves realized he wasn’t going to win, and they’ve been operating with a Trump’s-got-no-real-shot safety net. They debate whether Sanders’ role in the fall should be a full vote-for-Clinton campaign, or whether he should just campaign hard against Trump without signing up to do much for her directly.
    They haven’t been able to get Sanders focused on any of that, or on the real questions about what kind of long term organization to build out of his email list. They know they’ll have their own rally in Philadelphia – outside the the convention hall—but that’s about as far as they’ve gotten.
    “He wants to be in the race until the end, until the roll call vote,” Weaver said.
    Last edited by Robby; June 8th, 2016 at 09:00 AM.
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  11. #4331
    Colin Baker Apologist Mr. Zoro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Indecision 2016 - Not yet, Snake! It's not over yet!

    It's pretty irritating when people won't vote for Hilary because of her character, and yet they don't apply the same standards to Trump.

    I'm not a fan of her as a person, but no matter which way I see it, I'm more comfortable with her in office than Trump. I mean, whoever becomes President has to talk and work with world leaders, for one thing. Imagining Trump do that terrifies me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone_Baroness View Post
    Yeah. I have some friends that are being completely irritating about Bernie. I may have to disable Facebook for a few months. They seem to have blinders on.
    Fb becomes a riot around the political elections, it's quite shocking yet entertaining. I still have some friends blocked from the 2012 election :) not because I disagreed with them, but because they were just so obsessed and so obnoxious about it all. It was all they talked about, even afterwards.

    Politics is important, but I don't want to live and breathe it 24/7.

  12. #4332

    Default Re: Indecision 2016 - The one with the most votes wins, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Silence View Post
    Well... I hate to confirm your suspicions but,

    Here Politico goes into what's happening in Bernie Sanders' camp right now.

    Usually aides and staffers wait until the election is over to start dishing up dirt like this; if they're doing it this early, it can only be because they saw the writing on the wall a long time ago.
    Some of them cite concerns that Bernie is shooting himself in the foot with starting fights that evaporate his good will, and not considering alliances that would help him if he should lose.
    And at the center of it all: Bernie, bitter, wounded, and mad as hell. Harry Reid tried to set him up with progressive allies (in competitive districts) to help him in Congress
    and Bernie basically doesn't return the call because he wouldn't support anyone who hadn't endorsed him.

    It's... exactly what I expected was happening in this campaign. Bernie is running the show & so for better or for worse, the mistakes made are his.
    So much douchebaggery and bullshit in that story on the part of Bernie and his aides. That did not paint a flattering picture of
    the campaign and it's apparent message at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiq View Post
    I've often wondered about that myself; seems like being supported by people who only want you there so the world can end in fire (with you going to Hell in the process) would be somewhat off-putting
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  13. #4333
    The Nice Guy Outerspec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Indecision 2016 - Not yet, Snake! It's not over yet!

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    The vocal ones are the only ones being seen. The only ones discussing it, showing any involvement whatsoever. You look at his own websites, the facebook pages, the pages made by his supporters, it consistently comes out the same.


    Yes, obviously it's not 100% of his supporters. I'd still kind of rather it was him than Hillary. The same way not 100% of Republicans are evil. But it's a large enough chunk, the big visible part that talks and gets their message spread and news stories and influences others.

    It doesn't have to be literally every single supporter, if absolutely nothing else, no middleground or sensible speakers are being seen. I don't see *anything* else, and I go a lot of places.

    And even Bernie's own aides are saying he has no plans to support the democrats.

    93% of Republicans are fine decent people more in the middle than the extremes. And so are 93% of Democrats, I lived in Texas. I worked with Republicans with nary an issue. But the extremes, the ones that talk and are active in the process and are the only exposure anyone gets to any of it? That's the problem.
    Let's just hope Bernie gives a glowing endorsement. I myself have no doubt it'll be sincere and lasting but I don't know how that would impress upon said minority group who sincerely believe in "Bernie or Bust".
    Everything's Eventual...


  14. #4334
    is Stolen Silence's Avatar
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    Default Re: Indecision 2016 - The one with the most votes wins, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Green_vs_Red View Post
    So much douchebaggery and bullshit in that story on the part of Bernie and his aides. That did not paint a flattering picture of
    the campaign and it's apparent message at all.
    Well, no. It doesn't, but I should have put it as a bit of disclaimer that you can bet that the aides that leaked these conversations to Politico have some of their own agendas as well.

    I think in the coming hours we'll see what kind of concessions Bernie asks for so we can get this ship righted somehow.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wagomu View Post
    There's a great lighthearted vibe around here, because no matter how serious we might get, we're all together because of some magical pirate.

  15. #4335

    Default Re: Indecision 2016 - Not yet, Snake! It's not over yet!

    I like to think it's motivated by them falling out of love with Bernie either because of Weaver or Bernie himself or both.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiq View Post
    I've often wondered about that myself; seems like being supported by people who only want you there so the world can end in fire (with you going to Hell in the process) would be somewhat off-putting
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  16. #4336

    Default Re: Indecision 2016 - The one with the most votes wins, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon Rin View Post
    My respect for Bernie Sanders is plummeting.... I kept waiting for him to do the right thing and concede and put up a unified front against Trump but... ugh.........
    Gonna be honest even if it's not the most popular opinion around here— I can't see how many people had much respect for Bernie to begin with. Wasting time and money is a concept he's all too familiar with, so I'm not surprised he's going to remain in the race, raking up money from his delusional donators by saying "IT'S NOT OVER YET" until the convention. He was a nobody with a fondness for communistic ideals (like breadlines) and didn't have a job until he was 40, but ever since he became a presidential candidate he's been able to go and do all these nice things and have the time of his life. He's known for a long time that he's not going to win; he's just enjoying his 15 minutes of fame.

    And that's just one of the many problems I have with him. Even though I don't like Hillary either, I'd much rather her have the nomination.
    Last edited by Mikey D. Luffy; June 8th, 2016 at 11:36 AM.

  17. #4337

    Default Re: Indecision 2016 - The one with the most votes wins, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey D. Luffy View Post
    I can't see how many people had much respect for Bernie to begin with.
    Because he struck a lot of the same cords Obama did 8 years ago. Relative "political outsider" that spoke with fresh ideas about how the system was broken and we needed change and he spoke well to issues that we cared about, and he didn't seem like a typical politician.

    Yes, he's been a politician for forever, but he's been in the background enough he was a relatively new face to voters and we could look at his record and go "sure, he's been a politician, but he's not one of THEM. He's been speaking the TRUTH for DECADES and we're just now hearing about the guy! If you look at his record he's totally consistent and stands by his principles!"

    Compared to Clinton who we've known in depth for decades and is absolutely the symbol of traditional politics, it was enticing.

    And that sounds very, very good. Too good to be true, but easy to believe with just a light skimming of his record, which is all most of us really had a year ago when he first became a presence, and that's pretty much the narrative they pushed until around March, when Clinton won Super Tuesday and the math became near impossible for him.

    At a surface glance, he looked really really promising. Especially in a sequel to the "Unknown underdog versus Clinton" match, people could delude themselves for a long time that history might repeat itself, while never actually looking all that closely at what the situation actually was 8 years ago.

    Of course, the politicians that actually HAVE known him for decades apparently don't like him and didn't think he could unify anything or help the party, and that's why they never even remotely rallied around him, and a year of light vetting and campaigning have shown a lot of his faults and that yes, he was too good to be true.

    He might still factually be a better person than Clinton, (at least partly because he hasn't been attacked by Republicans nonstop for 20 years) but in terms of clean record and actually getting stuff done and working with the party? Eh, not so much.
    Last edited by Robby; June 8th, 2016 at 12:45 PM.
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  18. #4338

    Default Re: Indecision 2016 - Not yet, Snake! It's not over yet!

    My problem with what people like Outerspec are saying about Bernie is how much of it was revealed to be just flat out wrong last night. The minute he mentioned Hillary, the crowd immediately began booing. There's a reason for that and it's entirely becuase the Sanders campaign has long been sellung the idea that the system is rigged. The utter lack of response on his part other than a "Let me finish" gesture speaks volumes about the lack of character that's become the hallmark of his campaign forthe past two months.
    Complicating things since 2009.

  19. #4339

    Default Re: Indecision 2016 - Not yet, Snake! It's not over yet!

    It's so funny to see that the establishments of both parties have unfair and undemocratic processes and rules supposed to give an easier path to the nomination to their favorite candidates and it ended backfiring at them
    For the republicans trump would probably not have won the nomination if they had only proportional primaries
    For the democrats hillary has to wait until the convention to be confirmed despite her huge lead in the pledged delegates count because of the super delegate system that might have secured the nomination for her if things went bad.

  20. #4340

    Default Re: Indecision 2016 - The one with the most votes wins, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey D. Luffy View Post
    He was a nobody
    He's a senator? Did you not know this?
    with a fondness for communistic ideals (like breadlines)
    Bernie and his idea have their weak spots to attack, but maybe try understanding literally any of them before attempting to attack lol.
    and didn't have a job until he was 40,
    Bizarre random accusation that is entirely incorrect.

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