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Thread: Random News Article Discussion II

  1. #14901
    Karaage-san, Aishiteru! AfroSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruin View Post
    people who vet meritocracy over everything else really just don't want to admit that they themselves got to where they are due to inherent biases that see their merits as better than the merits of people who are equally qualified but also female and/or brown

    you call it a quota but more balance in a gender ratio means that the merits of female employees become more visible and thus their "merit" becomes more apparent next to Bob McWhiteguy
    If what you're trying to say is 'the skills demanded to fullfill a job position are biased towards white males', then you're gonna have to give me evidence of this, and show me why that skill isn't important for the job in of itself.

    And by all means, if something is there only, or mainly, to make it easier for men or white people to qualify, and has little, or even no relation,to the skills actually required for the job in question, then that's clearly discriminatory. But the solution is to remove that aspect of the application, or reassess the value given to it, not to keep the process identical while putting quotas in place to make up for it!

    For example, in the UK, Universities and schools realized that males faired better in timed tests, while females performed better at coursework. So the UK Universities realigned their assessment methods to include more coursework, ensuring that males weren't getting higher scores solely due to having an advantage in the assessment method. Perfectly legitimate, meritocratic, fair.

    Under your view, the universities should just have arbitrarily lowered the pass mark for girls, instead of fixing the inherent problem in their testing methods.

    Spoiler:
    Now lets extend this analogy to the job market. If the job in question literally comported solving tests under timed conditions, then you'd expect more men to pass through the application process, due to their inherent advantage in completing timed tests. It's just the nature of the job, it's not 'discrimination', it's just the way the cookie crumbles.

    Vice versa for a job that involves being paid for doing coursework. You'd expect women to perform better, and thus succeed more at getting through the job application process, and take a bigger share of the jobs. Nothing to do with discrimination.

    You can start talking discrimination when you look at the two jobs, and notice the male dominated one is paid disproportionately more than the female dominated one. You might ask 'why is this?'.

    Reasons might be inherent discrimination in the system, but it might also be that for some reason the demand for test-completing outstrips the demand for coursework, resulting in a higher pay for a former due to supply and demand. You'd have to find out why, before immediately decrying it as 'sexist pay discrepancy'. If there is no good reason, sexist discrimination is the correct assumption. It might (probably is) be a combination of sexism and some other big reason. But do look for that reason, before you "fix" pay, creating an unfair situation where your morality as opposed to the market dictates wages and the value we give to each profession.

    But sure I'm a sophistic sexist with a nefarious purpose, I'm not merely concerned with equality and meritocracy being the pillars on which we base our society, as opposed to moral outrage.
    Last edited by AfroSamurai; October 5th, 2017 at 11:57 AM.

  2. #14902

    Default Random News Article Discussion II

    What’s important is the fact that the job gets done. Not who does it.

    -me and everyone ever who work in recruitment.

  3. #14903

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by AfroSamurai View Post
    If what you're trying to say is 'the skills demanded to fullfill a job position are biased towards white males', then you're gonna have to give me evidence of this, and show me why that skill isn't important for the job in of itself.
    people have sent out identical resumes, literally identical aside from different names on them, to employers and found that resumes with female and ethnic names get callbacks less often than resume with "white" male names. It's been documented, it's not hard to find. Just google "hiring bias" and you can find plenty on it.

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  4. #14904
    Karaage-san, Aishiteru! AfroSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruin View Post
    people have sent out identical resumes, literally identical aside from different names on them, to employers and found that resumes with female and ethnic names get callbacks less often than resume with "white" male names. It's been documented, it's not hard to find. Just google "hiring bias" and you can find plenty on it.
    I saw a similar study in the UK for STEM jobs, with the only difference between applications being gender. The results came out 2:1 in favour of women being hired.

    http://www.pnas.org/content/112/17/5360

    So it's fair to say that inequalities arise on both sides, depending on where you are and what the field is. Now, my view would be to look at individual fields and make sure the bias is evened out at the source, ideally by conceiling names and gender of applicants, and making changes to the interview process to ensure biases are mitigated. You seem to prefer just imposing quotas. It's a free world, but I like my meritocratic way of fixing injustice more than your arbitrary one.


    Besides, your post literally misses the point. If the resumes are identical, there is no skill difference, it is JUST discrimination. That's *clearly* something that needs fixing at the level of the employer, all I'm saying is remove the bias, don't artificially fix things with quotas
    Last edited by AfroSamurai; October 5th, 2017 at 12:47 PM.

  5. #14905

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by AfroSamurai View Post
    I saw a similar study in the UK for STEM jobs, with the only difference between applications being gender. The results came out 2:1 in favour of women being hired.

    http://www.pnas.org/content/112/17/5360

    So it's fair to say that inequalities arise on both sides, depending on where you are and what the field is. Now, my view would be to look at individual fields and make sure the bias is evened out at the source, ideally by conceiling names and gender of applicants, and making changes to the interview process to ensure biases are mitigated. You seem to prefer just imposing quotas. It's a free world, but I like my meritocratic way of fixing injustice more than your arbitrary one.
    http://gender.stanford.edu/news/2014...ather-jennifer
    boink

    also lol
    seriously suggesting that people will just not look at names and genders on applicants, vague "changes" that can't be enforced
    yeah sure sure, very meritocractic

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  6. #14906
    Karaage-san, Aishiteru! AfroSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruin View Post
    http://gender.stanford.edu/news/2014...ather-jennifer
    boink

    also lol
    seriously suggesting that people will just not look at names and genders on applicants, vague "changes" that can't be enforced
    yeah sure sure, very meritocractic
    O.o This is literally what the UK government has suggested as a solution to the issue. I know that inequality is way wider in the US, but you're really doing yourselves no favour towards fixing it with this kind of dismissive attitude to 'soft' changes.

  7. #14907

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    the US is a bigger place, with a lot more people
    it'd be impossible to enforce these kinds of rules on different levels

    i.e. you probably wouldn't be able to contest that Sheriff Sharecropper is favoring Joe Brownlyncher over Andre Blackman in a court since chances are the courts are biased in favor of Joe Brownlyncher too and would just rule that Sheriff Sharecropper "picked the best applicant" for the job

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  8. #14908

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruin View Post
    people who vet meritocracy over everything else really just don't want to admit that they themselves got to where they are due to inherent biases that see their merits as better than the merits of people who are equally qualified but also female and/or brown

    you call it a quota but more balance in a gender ratio means that the merits of female employees become more visible and thus their "merit" becomes more apparent next to Bob McWhiteguy
    The problem is that it isn't just a quota. They're literally hanging up signs that say "no men need apply".

    There are so many ways this could have been done without active and open discrimination, which is why I asked what could have caused such an insane decision.

  9. #14909

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    oh no how sad
    a guy needs to wait two months before applying to become a cop what has the world come to

    next thing you know blacks and whites will be marrying, gays will be adopting kids, and cats and dogs will be living together

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  10. #14910
    Discovered Stowaway Sparsebeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II


  11. #14911
    Karaage-san, Aishiteru! AfroSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    So your argument comes down 'America is too big to do anything sensible in, (basically the anti-medicare healthcare argument republicans use) so (somehow) quotas are the only alternative'.

    Should this fail, whatever, 'white men can't argue against things that are discriminatory to white people or men, because institutional racism'. Way to go bud, fight racism and sexist with... racism and sexism in the other direction! Genius.

    And a bit of stupid strawmanning implying we're evil republicans, and a simpsons clip implying all we're as evil as Montgomery Burns for wanting real equality instead of artificially "solving" the problem. Yay.

  12. #14912

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiq View Post
    I've often wondered about that myself; seems like being supported by people who only want you there so the world can end in fire (with you going to Hell in the process) would be somewhat off-putting
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  13. #14913

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Green_vs_Red View Post
    There's a lot of really stupid cowardly morons in higher level education management.

  14. #14914
    Discovered Stowaway Sparsebeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by AfroSamurai View Post
    And a bit of stupid strawmanning implying we're evil republicans, and a simpsons clip implying all we're as evil as Montgomery Burns for wanting real equality instead of artificially "solving" the problem. Yay.
    Maybe it's because your kind of argument stands in the way of rectifing grave problems like the sur-representation of white males in positions of autority and power (politics, police, judiciary, etc.).

    Sometimes, problems are bad enough that you have to take measures to rectify them. And frankly, discrimination of white males is such an insignificant, puny and frankly unimportant "problem" that yes, I do think that to waste time on it rather than on the thousands of REAL inequities shows misoginy and racism. Basicly, it's taking attention from real issues by distractions. Yeah, in 2017, the real problem is discrimination of white men... pathetic.

    Wanting to achieve some proportionality between numbers in the society and in positions of power is pretty hard to do if you don't use methods like quotas, especially if there are less applicants from some categories of people and the recruiters are arguably biaised.

  15. #14915

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparsebeard View Post
    Maybe it's because your kind of argument stands in the way of rectifing grave problems like the sur-representation of white males in positions of autority and power (politics, police, judiciary, etc.).

    Sometimes, problems are bad enough that you have to take measures to rectify them. And frankly, discrimination of white males is such an insignificant, puny and frankly unimportant "problem" that yes, I do think that to waste time on it rather than on the thousands of REAL inequities shows misoginy and racism. Basicly, it's taking attention from real issues by distractions. Yeah, in 2017, the real problem is discrimination of white men... pathetic.

    Wanting to achieve some proportionality between numbers in the society and in positions of power is pretty hard to do if you don't use methods like quotas, especially if there are less applicants from some categories of people and the recruiters are arguably biaised.
    It really sounds like your argument just boils down to "the ends justify the means" and "only the most important issues as determined by me should be discussed, and anyone who disagrees is sexist or racist."

  16. #14916
    Discovered Stowaway Sparsebeard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    It really sounds like your argument just boils down to "the ends justify the means" and "only the most important issues as determined by me should be discussed, and anyone who disagrees is sexist or racist."
    And what you are doing in focusing on (what YOU perceive as) a truly minor and inconsequential injust policy in a random other country (a country that operates refugee concentration camps) rather than the whole array of true discrimination in your own country. All that because it furthers your silly argument (it's not the first time I've read post from you in the same vein) that the poor, poor WASPs are the true victims of this eras, thereby promting status quo rather than addressing the real problems.

    And yeah, in such a case the end often justifies the means, to say otherwise is either childish, cowardly or dishonest. For exemple, social programs, taxes, white lies to children, the american civil war, carpet bombing of german cities during WW2 can all be seen as examples of the "end justifing the means" in a way... Compared to those and the benefficial effects of the policy we are talking about what the hell is the problem with a temporary recruitement of female police officers???

  17. #14917
    Kick-Ass Finalis desa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    I'm sure it is possible to care about multiple issue both big and small. The forum is an easy example where you can switch between topic that varies greatly in tone and the gravity of the subject. As far as I know Robo hasn't neglected a job that would have help more people by talking about this subject. And this time he isn't derailing a conversation over semantics but bringing his own discussion and see what others think and share his own view. That's one of the goal of the topic to I think. Talking about all different kind of news.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by AfroSamurai View Post
    And why is this a good thing? No seriously, why do we *need* 50% of police officers to be women. What benefit does it offer to society, other than propping up some fake idea that men and women are equally likely to want to become police officers?
    I haven't done research on that or know much about Australia so I wouldn't be able to tell if it is a good or bad idea.

    Tey may not formally need the 50% ratio but they might consider that it will make female feel more confortable applying for it if the force become less of a dick fest. If is 50% there's no particular reason to feel it is a man job and feel pressured to choose something else. I'm also sure other people of the same gender might make better training environment and same for the work place.

    As for the initiative. They could probably try a comprehensive plan over 10-15 years with careful roadblocks but chose to simply fix the glaring problem and work out the fine details later. Might suck for smooth transition but work well and establishing the new order of things.

    I don't care much about what happens in Australia but I think that even if the choice is bad it is far from disastrous or crazy.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    Yes, but why are they in such a rush that they decided to ban all male applicants rather than review and tweak their recruitment program?
    Because they want this new way of doing things to be done as quickly as possible. Their might be a smoother but it also means leaving a system they consider fucked up run for much longer.



  18. #14918

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparsebeard View Post
    And what you are doing in focusing on (what YOU perceive as) a truly minor and inconsequential injust policy in a random other country (a country that operates refugee concentration camps) rather than the whole array of true discrimination in your own country. All that because it furthers your silly argument (it's not the first time I've read post from you in the same vein) that the poor, poor WASPs are the true victims of this eras, thereby promting status quo rather than addressing the real problems.

    And yeah, in such a case the end often justifies the means, to say otherwise is either childish, cowardly or dishonest. For exemple, social programs, taxes, white lies to children, the american civil war, carpet bombing of german cities during WW2 can all be seen as examples of the "end justifing the means" in a way... Compared to those and the benefficial effects of the policy we are talking about what the hell is the problem with a temporary recruitement of female police officers???
    I don't see the point in throwing away the moral high ground to recruit mainly white women (likely the most privileged Australian minority).

  19. #14919

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    I just wanted to mention how strange and silly it is to me to read those sort of super evil and racists depictions of white people, as if it was a unique charasteristic of whites, while tons of brown people here abuse, descriminate and rape indigenous people like everyday.

  20. #14920
    Someone call for Zeidoktor sgamer82's Avatar
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    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Some levity: Type a phrase and watch it fall off a wall behind Theresa May

    https://thebritishdrea.com

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