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Thread: Random News Article Discussion II: is racism racist?

  1. #12421

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey King View Post
    Sure Roboblue, that's what human beings would do. The world is exactly like your facebook feed.
    How am I supposed to feel when someone advocates death? It's kind of an inhuman thing to do.

  2. #12422

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    Retribution isn't what should motivate our criminal justice system. We need to look at the situation very carefully and decide what course of action will result in the best possible overlapping outcome for society as a whole and the people involved.
    This just reads like a reason for why Dylan Roof should be executed.

    Even though i know you mean for it to be the exact opposite.

  3. #12423

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    How am I supposed to feel when someone advocates death? It's kind of an inhuman thing to do.
    Feel that those people are fine with black spree killers apparently.
    The real problem in our society.

  4. #12424

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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
    This just reads like a reason for why Dylan Roof should be executed.

    Even though i know you mean for it to be the exact opposite.
    Why is his death a better outcome than life in prison? If he's killed, weird racists and similarly sick people may view him as a martyr.
    If he lives, no one gets hurt and we can study him to better identify potential murderers before they kill; that means possibly saving lives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey King View Post
    Feel that those people are fine with black spree killers apparently.
    The real problem in our society.
    But... some people are. I personally know someone who is, and it's horrifying. :(

  5. #12425
    Kick-Ass Finalis desa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    Retribution isn't what should motivate our criminal justice system.
    If punishment isn't part of the system there's no good reason for the sentence to vary depending on the gravity of the crime. Of course you can believe that taking someone's life is always to big of a punishment but the existence of punishment as part of the system seems pretty evident.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    How am I supposed to feel when someone advocates death? It's kind of an inhuman thing to do.
    Someone who kills a cat isn't the same as someone who killed a whole bus of people.
    Advocating for killing a person because you believe he has done to much harm and is a danger to society isn't the same as killing someone for your own pleasure.


    I always found the word inhuman funny considering what are considered inhuman are most often find in human.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    But... some people are. I personally know someone who is, and it's horrifying. :(
    Some usually mean faaar from the majority

    Ex: Mexican are rapist but some are good people.

    Don't mess with the Law if you don't have an Ace up your sleeve.

  6. #12426

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by desa View Post
    If punishment isn't part of the system there's no good reason for the sentence to vary depending on the gravity of the crime. Of course you can believe that taking someone's life is always to big of a punishment but the existence of punishment as part of the system seems pretty evident.
    The desire for punishment shouldn't be the primary motivating factor of our justice system, but that doesn't mean we should eliminate punishment as a tool of law enforcement entirely. It's the difference between allowing a cop to shoot you for speeding and requiring that he pull you over and write you a ticket.

    [QUOTE=desa;3743560]Someone who kills a cat isn't the same as someone who killed a whole bus of people.[quote]
    I know that, but I don't understand why you're saying it.
    Quote Originally Posted by desa View Post
    Advocating for killing a person because you believe he has done to much harm and is a danger to society isn't the same as killing someone for your own pleasure.
    A person in jail forever is no longer a harm to society, and killing that person is analogous to shooting fish in a barrel. What is the difference between killing someone in captivity because it makes you feel safer and killing someone for your own pleasure?


    Quote Originally Posted by desa View Post
    I always found the word inhuman funny considering what are considered inhuman are most often find in human.
    I think maybe it's because "inhuman" gradually replaced "ungodly" in common use.

    Quote Originally Posted by desa View Post
    Some usually mean faaar from the majority

    Ex: Mexican are rapist but some are good people.
    Thankfully yes, but it's still shocking and upsetting to encounter.
    Last edited by RoboBlue; January 11th, 2017 at 11:59 AM.

  7. #12427

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    In general I'm against the Death Penalty, but I'd still reserve it for massmurderers, serial killers and cannibals. So Roof should definetly get the needle.

  8. #12428
    Kick-Ass Finalis desa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    The desire for punishment shouldn't be the primary motivating factor of our justice system, but that doesn't mean we should eliminate punishment as a tool of law enforcement entirely. It's the difference between allowing a cop to shoot you for speeding and requiring that he pull you over and write you a ticket.
    Yes because the minor offense require a minor punishment(a ticket). A bigger offense gets an harsher punishement(25 years for murder for example). You can think death is always to much of a punishment and life in prison is enough but the punishement is still a component.

    I know that, but I don't understand why you're saying it.
    Because just because it involve death doesn't mean they are all the same. Would you find it inhuman if someone advocating that you can use lethal force when you risked getting killed yourself and it seems like your only option(self defense). Or if if it is to help protect civilians and stop a force that is causing a great number of death (engaging in the military to fight the nazis).

    A person in perpetual legal custody is no longer a harm to society, and killing that person is analogous to shooting fish in a barrel.
    Past the fact that escaping is an option. There's always the question of appropriate punishment. There's a reason even if you killed someone on impulse you still can go to prison. It's because even if it was not planned and is unlikely to happen again you still commit an act that should carry some form of punishment.

    You believe life in prison is enough in the case of a racistly fueled massmurder. Others think such grievious act requires the removal of the individual from society altogether.

    What is the difference between killing someone in captivity because it makes you feel safer and killing someone for your own pleasure?
    One is only motivated by your personal gain and harm society. The other is the punishment decided by the society that was greatly harmed by the person's action after he had a chance to explain why he caused such harm and why his actions and motives does not warrant such great punishment.

    I think maybe it's because "inhuman" gradually replaced "ungodly" in common use.
    Both are ridiculous. We should just go with unchristian(at least christian value praise love and stuff) or something similar.

    Thankfully yes, but it's still shocking and upsetting to encounter.
    Yes but the small percentage is no ground to make a general statement that people would be fine to let the massmurderer live if he was black.

    Don't mess with the Law if you don't have an Ace up your sleeve.

  9. #12429

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    I feel like those people who support killing Dylan Roof would oppose it if he was black and the victims were white. There are no valid moral justifications for killing a person who would otherwise remain incapacitated by the state indefinitely.
    Yeah that's provided the suspect isn't shot and killed in a hail of gunfire and therefore can stand trial.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiq View Post
    I've often wondered about that myself; seems like being supported by people who only want you there so the world can end in fire (with you going to Hell in the process) would be somewhat off-putting
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  10. #12430

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    My main issue with Roof getting the death penalty is it's an easy way out. His statements during the trial definitely make it clear he doesn't care at all about the victims or himself or the people left behind.

    Death or sitting in prison makes no real difference to him. But I think they'd never put him with general population cause he'd be dead in a week. So he sits in solitary for years. To deteriorate I guess? It's a weird case because of his general apathy. There's no real sense of justice in this either way. Other than the knowledge he's not free to do what he wants.

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  11. #12431

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    Quote Originally Posted by Green_vs_Red View Post
    Yeah that's provided the suspect isn't shot and killed in a hail of gunfire and therefore can stand trial.
    We could discuss how it's wrong for police to summarily execute people who aren't yet convicted, if you'd like. One of the few stains on Obama's record is related to that. It sounds like you agree that we'd be better off killing as few people as possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by desa View Post
    Yes because the minor offense require a minor punishment(a ticket). A bigger offense gets an harsher punishement(25 years for murder for example). You can think death is always to much of a punishment and life in prison is enough but the punishement is still a component.
    Yeah, punishment is a tool whose use is intended to achieve the goal of compliance with the law.

    Quote Originally Posted by desa View Post
    Because just because it involve death doesn't mean they are all the same. Would you find it inhuman if someone advocating that you can use lethal force when you risked getting killed yourself and it seems like your only option(self defense).
    I would not, but a non-premeditated killing is extremely different from a premeditated execution. The burden of proof for killing in self defense is very high, and someone who killed in self defense would not get off without some form of punishment; dealing with law enforcement over an extended period and being forced to re-live the incident is a cruel but necessary process.
    Quote Originally Posted by desa View Post
    Or if if it is to help protect civilians and stop a force that is causing a great number of death (engaging in the military to fight the nazis).
    I specifically mentioned Hitler earlier, but wars are very rarely fought to save lives. World War 2 was not fought to save the Jews, and when news of the Holocaust reached the American military, rescue was believed to be impossible. The atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were historically claimed to have "saved lives", but public opinion is turning against that idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by desa View Post
    Past the fact that escaping is an option. There's always the question of appropriate punishment. There's a reason even if you killed someone on impulse you still can go to prison. It's because even if it was not planned and is unlikely to happen again you still commit an act that should carry some form of punishment.
    That punishment serves a purpose, yes. When people kill, they almost always feel intense anxiety and remorse; punishment reinforces that feeling and helps prevent people from becoming desensitized to the act of killing by disincentivizing it, at least in theory. Killing a muzzled killer doesn't really serve any purpose.

    Quote Originally Posted by desa View Post
    You believe life in prison is enough in the case of a racistly fueled massmurder. Others think such grievious act requires the removal of the individual from society altogether.
    I agree, which is why we give people multiple life sentences without the possibility of parole.

    Quote Originally Posted by desa View Post
    One is only motivated by your personal gain and harm society. The other is the punishment decided by the society that was greatly harmed by the person's action after he had a chance to explain why he caused such harm and why his actions and motives does not warrant such great punishment.
    That makes execution sound worse, in my opinion. A group who calmly and rationally decide to kill people are much scarier than a single person who kills on impulse.

    Quote Originally Posted by desa View Post
    Yes but the small percentage is no ground to make a general statement that people would be fine to let the massmurderer live if he was black.
    To be honest, it's hard for me to accept the idea that anyone would calmly and rationally arrive at the conclusion that law enforcement should intentionally kill people who aren't a threat. I can easily accept the corresponding view that someone who would demand the death of those four Chicago kids would readily support their right to live if certain unimportant details were changed, race being the most obvious.

    There must be people in your life that you would never want killed, even if society insisted that they deserved it. If a killer shared that person's race/gender/hair color/hobbies, wouldn't you be a little less likely to support their execution?

    I admit that it was harsh of me to assume that everyone who supports killing Dylan Roof would be swayed by race alone, but his race and the race of his victims are deeply important to how we all perceive his crime, and play a dominant role in what punishment people demand for him. Would it really make no difference if he were a white man who killed only white victims, or a black man who killed only black victims? What about a woman who killed only female victims or a man who killed only male victims?
    Last edited by RoboBlue; January 11th, 2017 at 03:30 PM.

  12. #12432
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    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone_Baroness View Post
    My main issue with Roof getting the death penalty is it's an easy way out. His statements during the trial definitely make it clear he doesn't care at all about the victims or himself or the people left behind.

    Death or sitting in prison makes no real difference to him. But I think they'd never put him with general population cause he'd be dead in a week. So he sits in solitary for years. To deteriorate I guess? It's a weird case because of his general apathy. There's no real sense of justice in this either way. Other than the knowledge he's not free to do what he wants.
    But wouldn't it make a lot more sense to have him in jail for a long time and during said time have a psychiatrist work on him? Study his case. Search for his deep motivations, analyse his train of thought, try to make him come to his senses, instill humanistic values in him... Try to reshape him as a person? Wouldn't that be better than just outright killing him? I'm totally on RoboBlue's side here, it just seems like an easy and fast way of dealing with it. Killing other people (or sentient animals, for that matter) is only justified in self defense. When there are other lives at stake. If the guy is already locked up and can do no wrong to others, why in the world should he be killed?

    Yes, some form of punishment should be a part of the justice system, but it should provide an incentive to reforming the criminal, not merely to exact a kind of "eye-for-an-eye" biblical vendetta.

    @desa, I just looked it up and I seriously thought that death penalty was something from a more distant past, like slavery, maybe because my country abolished it 150(!) years ago and we learn that in school (except for war crimes until 1976, and, even then, under very strict circumstances).
    Last edited by Chrior; January 11th, 2017 at 03:50 PM.
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  13. #12433

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrior View Post
    But wouldn't it make a lot more sense to have him in jail for a long time and during said time have a psychiatrist work on him? Study his case. Search for his deep motivations, analyse his train of thought, try to make him come to his senses, instill humanistic values in him... Try to reshape him as a person? Wouldn't that be better than just outright killing him? I'm totally on RoboBlue's side here, it just seems like an easy and fast way of dealing with it. Killing other people (or sentient animals, for that matter) is only justified in self defense. When there are other lives at stake. If the guy is already locked up and can do no wrong to others, why in the world should he be killed? Yes, some form of punishment should be a part of the justice system, but it should provide an incentive to reforming the criminal, not merely to exact a kind of "eye-for-an-eye" biblical vendetta.
    I think mental help only works if the person wants help. They can try and help him. That's fine, they should I guess. But has someone that's done something so monstrous really wanted to change before? Some people are a lost cause.

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  14. #12434

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrior View Post
    @desa, I just looked it up and I seriously thought that death penalty was something from a more distant past, like slavery, maybe because my country abolished it 150(!) years ago and we learn that in school (except for war crimes until 1976, and, even then, under very strict circumstances).
    You had a psuedo-fascist dictatorship from 1933 to 1974. The Portuguese state was absolutely killing people less than 150 years ago, and not for war crimes.

  15. #12435

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    I think maybe it's because "inhuman" gradually replaced "ungodly" in common use.
    Does ungodly even fit the bill for what we are talking about here?

    I'm not sure that Christian scripture ever categorically denounces the death penelty.

    Certainly not Islam, and i would have to say the Jewish faith too.


    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    It sounds like you agree that we'd be better off killing as few people as possible?
    Is this a thing that anyone, at any point, has disagreed with?

    That makes execution sound worse, in my opinion. A group who calmly and rationally decide to kill people are much scarier than a single person who kills on impulse.
    In some sort of lofty mental exercise about humanities potential for violence or something? Or are you suggesting that you'd find yourself less disturbed to be in the vicinity of a spree killer who gleefully shots down elderly churchgoers, than an organized court of law. Cause damn, i am not following your line of reasoning here.


    I admit that it was harsh of me to assume that everyone who supports killing Dylan Roof would be swayed by race alone, but his race and the race of his victims are deeply important to how we all perceive his crime, and play a dominant role in what punishment people demand for him. Would it really make no difference if he were a white man who killed only white victims, or a black man who killed only black victims? What about a woman who killed only female victims or a man who killed only male victims?
    Is the question here "wouldn't you feel less bad if Dylan Roof had gunned down white grandmothers instead?"

    Cause that is how it came across to me. But i can't imagine that was what you meant for it to be read as

  16. #12436
    The Nice Guy Outerspec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    As far as I'm concerned Dylan Roof can spend the rest of his life in jail or be executed. Makes no difference to me and he deserves either one. The families of the victims aren't even in agreement on what he deserves or what is justified. They don't need to be either. Dylan Roof admitted to the crimes that he is guilty of and the justice system has determined the suitable punishment. That's how it's supposed to work.
    Last edited by Outerspec; January 11th, 2017 at 08:14 PM.
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  17. #12437

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey King View Post
    You had a psuedo-fascist dictatorship from 1933 to 1974. The Portuguese state was absolutely killing people less than 150 years ago, and not for war crimes.
    Clearly government ordered executions only count as the death penalty if it happened in country.
    Complicating things since 2009.

  18. #12438

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiq View Post
    Clearly government ordered executions only count as the death penalty if it happened in country.
    haha, I wasn't even considering the colonial empire. But good point.

  19. #12439

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    We could discuss how it's wrong for police to summarily execute people who aren't yet convicted, if you'd like. One of the few stains on Obama's record is related to that. It sounds like you agree that we'd be better off killing as few people as possible?
    I don't see how those are related given the circumstances. As for the second point more or less yeah.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiq View Post
    I've often wondered about that myself; seems like being supported by people who only want you there so the world can end in fire (with you going to Hell in the process) would be somewhat off-putting
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  20. #12440

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey King View Post
    haha, I wasn't even considering the colonial empire. But good point.
    I was actually referring to their habit of torturing people to death in Cape Verde, but, yeah.
    Complicating things since 2009.

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