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Thread: Random News Article Discussion II

  1. #3961

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Outerspec View Post
    You seem pretty confident and assured that a majority of Muslims aren't always against violence and then go on to say what you do know, you only know from your own experience.

    Does your personal experience give you insight into the majority viewpoint of Muslims all around the world? Does it give you insight of an American Muslim like myself who would disagree otherwise? And what do you mean by violence? Extremists attacks on innocents? Military action? Tribal disputes? Harsh criminal justice? Street fighting? A person not always being against "violence" could mean anything. Like, I'm a Muslim and I wouldn't be against someone shooting a rapist pedophile in the face. Islam is a religion of peace but no one's trying to make it out to be the stereotypical Buddhist monk cliché where any act of violence turns Muslims pale and bent over a bucket.

    I'm not the ideal Muslim, far from it, and surely can't speak for everyone, but I know the reason why Muslims come out so hard against violence in general is to fight the stereotype that Muslims are violent, period.
    Sorry of course it's based on my life experience. Just as yours is. Just as anyone's or are you suggesting that you have implicit knowledge based on some a a priori source. When I mean life experience I do mean the culmination of my experience of being a Muslim that includes living in a Muslim society, living in a few years in a non-Muslim society such as Great Britain, being part of a local, Islamic community and with the internet, interacting and reading and discussing with fellow Muslims of course.

    Just as you feel that the Muslims you live and interact with come out harsh against violence I can say with just as much certainty that the community, no the nation I live in barely does so. Whatever condemnation is lip service because the actions of the narrow fringe of radicals are implicitly supported by the state and tacitly supported by the majority Muslims where I live. When churches are firebombed or Bibles meant for Christians seized by the authorities on the pretext of a higher law the Muslim community that always lauds moderation to outsider is conspicuously silent.

    You say I lack the insight of the Muslims living around the world. But how many Muslims nations exactly where the living standards and quality of life is better than North America? I can barely recall countries like Turkey, Malaysia, Indonesia, Brunei, Qatar, Dubai as having a quality of life that almost but is not quite as prosperous as Europe or North America.

    One can be aware of the pulse of Muslims on a general level without having to survey every nation and community. It's primarily looking at attitudes and seeing the responses in action. The recent school massacre in Pakistan is a case in point. Amidst the grief and rage will Pakistan make the policy changes and implement them whereby hate speech and incitement to violence is outlawed and militancy whether bad or good Taliban is banned? I'm hoping that this marks a real watershed from which Pakistan can get rid of the militant scourge and build itself into a functioning civil society.

    I sort of realise now that there is a difference in approach and interpretation here about the Muslim experience per se. The earlier methods I outlined as part of how I feel the French state and its Muslim community should respond to combat militancy are perhaps more in line with societies where Islam is ostensibly the State Religion. Islamic policies are essentially a top-down affair driven by the state apparatus. Community groups and mosques are organs of the Religious ministry in effect. Jumaat khutbahs are all vetted by the religious state department for example.

    I think this is what drew Femme's ire, I was advocating a rather harsh approach when she and perhaps yourself and other Muslims living in say North America are more used to a community driven, participatory bottom up movement where the national Muslim leadership is driven by the community.

    (TBH honest i don't know which came first in my country - latent Muslim activism and awakening interest in the community which the government encouraged through policy, Or Government Islamic policy encouraging Muslim community activism)

    Posted by Femme
    Now, what would end this cycle?
    If regular practicing Muslims were seen as normal people and given freeway to do outreach work in the community without the media constantly making them feel like the enemy when someone spills a glass of milk, then more people would be educated, no isolation, no alienation etc.

    Honestly, if the media changed it's methods of portraying Muslims for one year, I wonder how much public opinion would change
    i think in the long run the incremental approach you're advocating has more chance of success.

    I guess one could say that moderates here (Malaysia) want the government or state to impose or enforce moderation/curb militancy because they and I feel deep down the Muslims community here as a whole won't confront the growing puritanist trend without the state's backing


    by Monkey King

    The theme I'm sensing between you two is that immigrant communities (and uh local African slave descendents Muslim communities) of the New World are quite different than European immigrant communities (no idea about Australia).
    There's an awkward thing going on over there where I think poorer more vulnerable immigrants are moving in, and moving in with the very very awkward and undeveloped immigration culture of Western Europe.
    It's like here in Canada and the US we have very matured and seasoned immigration cultures, the alienation he mentioned is just less of a thing. When even a ton of Kurds can decide to settle in Nashville of all places and have it work out alright.
    This theme of alienated isolated seething immigrant communities in Europe just keeps coming up in this news thread.
    I think he has a point that there's something to be done in the communities themselves, and I also think what you're saying is right in that the non-Muslim community needs to adjust some of it's attitude for sure.
    That's what makes this so tricky, two sides have to make moves across a divide.
    If immigrants could feel more comfortable in their new homes it would go a longgggg way to helping matters.
    Pretty much agreed. I came from neither since I come from a Muslim country so it was fascinating to see Muslim communities elsewhere. I also agree the Muslim communities of North America are a wonderful example that Muslims can participate in a multi-ethnic, multi-religious environment in a peaceful and productive manner.

  2. #3962
    The Nice Guy Outerspec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    After Pakistan launched their admittedly limited military offense against the Taliban last summer the response from the country's leading politicians was lukewarm at best, but the goals and reasoning were concise.

    The military statement said the country could not afford to wait any longer. "Using North Waziristan as a base, these terrorists had waged a war against the state of Pakistan and had been disrupting our national life in all its dimensions, stunting our economic growth and causing enormous loss of life and property," it said.

    Pakistan's military had already ramped up pressure on militant groups in North Waziristan in recent weeks, launching air strikes and limited ground operations which it described as limited acts of retaliation against Taliban attacks.
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...rth-waziristan

    This was before the school shooting where 141 people were killed. Prospects of further action and maybe even some policies to limit the reach and expanse of the Taliban are good.
    Everything's Eventual...


  3. #3963

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    The Pakistan situation is a geopolitical mess I admit. You don't know if your proxy army today will turn around and attack you tomorrow.

    Yeah the army did launch a major offensive against the Pakistani Taliban recently, it was not fully supported by the civilian leadership back then though (breakdown of trust between civilian govt and military being another reason for the haphazard response to militant activity in the region). I suspect after this tragedy almost everyone in the Pakistan establishment is now moving forward together.

  4. #3964

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    And now we have another hostage situation...

    Really hope this doesn't become a trend.

  5. #3965

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Two hostage situations.

    The two Charlie terrorists are holding someone hostage north of Paris, while two others who killed a cop yesterday are holding 6 people hostage in a Jewish store, with the demand that the other two terrorists are safely allowed to leave their current position.

  6. #3966

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Raistlin View Post
    Living in the UK for a few years among the British Muslim community I was struck by the strong sense of alienation many of my classmates felt at living in Britain. Me? i thought they were bloody lucky to get to live there and they should be grateful they weren't living in Pakistan which admittedly hasn't changed much even today.
    I'm curious; were did you live in Britain? And maybe pertinently how long ago, if you don't mind saying.

  7. #3967

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiolino View Post
    Two hostage situations.

    The two Charlie terrorists are holding someone hostage north of Paris, while two others who killed a cop yesterday are holding 6 people hostage in a Jewish store, with the demand that the other two terrorists are safely allowed to leave their current position.
    The situation is really confusing. Wasn't it stated at first that the one who killed a cop yesterday was a single man?

    Also, some agencies claim two have died in the jewish store situation, while the police so far only aknowledges injured.

    This whole situation is so, so messed up.

  8. #3968

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    The two gunmen are dead, and the hostage is safe from what I heard at Dammartin.


    Spoiler:




  9. #3969

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    So while the Dammartin situation ended up with only the gunmen dead, the Jewish supermarket situation was totally awful:

    Agence France-Presse@AFP 34 minHace 34 minutos
    #BREAKING Five dead, including gunman, in Paris supermarket hostage drama

  10. #3970

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by kouch_lee View Post
    So while the Dammartin situation ended up with only the gunmen dead, the Jewish supermarket situation was totally awful:

    Agence France-Presse@AFP 34 minHace 34 minutos
    #BREAKING Five dead, including gunman, in Paris supermarket hostage drama
    There were two gunmen (a couple). Did the other flee?

    EDIT: And it looks like there's a 3rd hostage situation in a jewelry store at Montpellier, but that could be unrelated.

  11. #3971

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    http://www.newsweek.com/marine-le-pe...hooting-297742

    Marine Le Pen wants a referendum on the death penalty.

  12. #3972

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by King Cannon View Post
    There were two gunmen (a couple). Did the other flee?

    EDIT: And it looks like there's a 3rd hostage situation in a jewelry store at Montpellier, but that could be unrelated.
    I've read somewhere that the woman might've fled, yeah. I don't know how true is that.

  13. #3973
    The English Avenger Satsuki's Avatar
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    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Okay, now we are OFFICIALLY the Olympics bid:
    http://www.boston.com/business/news/...low%3Afacebook

    Because we came up with wacky ideas like a "temporary" 60,000 seat Olympic stadium. But hey, if it gives the city a reason to get our asses in gear and fix the metro system, I'm all for it.

  14. #3974

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Working thru some stuff. Dunno how long i will be here.

  15. #3975

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    And the fuckery has reached an EPIDEMIC proportion in Nigeria as Boko Haram has massacred over 2000 (!!!) people in northern Nigeria. It's gonna stay under the radar of course:


    chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-nigeria-boko-haram-massacre-20150109-story.html


    I don't think I can marshal enough emotional resources to express my feelings. It's a mix between hatred, anger, grief, sympathy and confusion. Isis it seems to me, ain't shit compared to these loonies.

  16. #3976
    Discovered Stew Femme's Avatar
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    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Sadly, that seems to be the way people are taking.

    http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/06/19...ance.html?_r=0

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Woops, didn't see the date. That article's gone wrongly viral it seems.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Meanwhile, there was a bombing in the states that nobody cared about:

    http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/01/09...html?referrer=
    Hidden:



  17. #3977

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Kansas has a Sam Brownback problem
    http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-s...nsas-brownback
    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiq View Post
    I've often wondered about that myself; seems like being supported by people who only want you there so the world can end in fire (with you going to Hell in the process) would be somewhat off-putting
    3DS Friend Code 0044-2806-5284




  18. #3978

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Femme View Post

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Meanwhile, there was a bombing in the states that nobody cared about:

    http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/01/09...html?referrer=
    Don't worry the FBI doesn't care either sketch of the bomber


  19. #3979

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Complicating things since 2009.

  20. #3980

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by project1980 View Post
    Don't worry the FBI doesn't care either sketch of the bomber

    http://i58.tinypic.com/dwwc46.jpg


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