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Thread: "I've made a huge mistake."

  1. #1

    Default "I've made a huge mistake."

    Quote Originally Posted by Champ View Post
    Im sorry, but I hate when people do this. You are not Oda. It's Oda's story. If Donflamingo gets taken down this arc, it isn't a mistake.
    Oda is the one god of storytelling, blessed father, infalliable soul, I shall put no authors before you. Hosannah.

    tldr: Your post is the mistake.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: When Will Doflamingo Be Defeated

    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey King View Post
    Oda is the one god of storytelling, blessed father, infalliable soul, I shall put no authors before you. Hosannah.

    tldr: Your post is the mistake.
    Just because the a portion of the audience thinks its a mistake doesn't make it a mistake. Otherwise my personal feelings on Bellamy would mean that Oda made a mistake.

    In the end, Oda is the author. He is crafting this story, if he feels that now is the right time for Doflamingo to be defeated, then it's the right time, and it's not a mistake no matter your personal opinion. He obviously has his reasons for wanting it done this way, and all will make sense eventually.

    Most of storytelling's iconic moments are "mistakes." Things not playing out how they're supposed to. This most recent of episode of Breaking Bad for example, from the minute it opened it was making storytelling "mistakes" it was doing things that didn't make sense, yet it will probably go down in history as the best episode of television ever.
    The Red Wedding in A Storm of Swords, totally a storytelling mistake, it made no sense. It's one of the most iconic scenes ever penned.
    Omar's last scene in The Wire; definitely a storytelling mistake. Still pretty much perfect.

    In the end, it's about placing your trust in the author, because they're the one who decides how the story is told. And whatever way they choose to tell it, that is the right way, because it is their story. Make no mistake, that doesn't make every story a good story, or even a decent one, but it means it's not wrong.


  3. #3

    Default Re: When Will Doflamingo Be Defeated

    I had to sit on this for a few seconds before realizing I think Nex is trying to talk about people deviating from patterns and then calling it a "mistake" because it's not playing by the rules or something to him.

    And he's trying to romanticise it

  4. #4
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    Default Re: When Will Doflamingo Be Defeated

    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey King View Post
    Oda is the one god of storytelling, blessed father, infalliable soul, I shall put no authors before you. Hosannah.

    tldr: Your post is the mistake.
    Oda is the god of one piece, homie. I believe it was yourself who said this isn't a spectator sport. No art is wrong, genius, I figured you were smart enough to know that. I hope someone crushes you in public the way you abuse people in this forum.

  5. #5

    Default Re: When Will Doflamingo Be Defeated

    This is all getting a little too hippie dippy for my taste

  6. #6

    Default Re: When Will Doflamingo Be Defeated

    Quote Originally Posted by Champ View Post
    Oda is the god of one piece, homie. I believe it was yourself who said this isn't a spectator sport. No art is wrong, genius, I figured you were smart enough to know that. I hope someone crushes you in public the way you abuse people in this forum.
    1. You severely misunderstood the thing I said that you're trying to quote.
    2. Art is pointless without reflection, criticism, and discussion.
    3. Storytelling is structured and something as simple as One Piece definitely can make problems for itself. I mean I'm sure you wouldn't deny the existence of plot holes right lol. No probably you would.
    4. I'm engaged to a member of the forum, and had a drink in Reykjavik with another. My public AP interactions are not what random white noise posters hope.

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    Default Re: When Will Doflamingo Be Defeated

    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey King View Post
    1. You severely misunderstood the thing I said that you're trying to quote.
    2. Art is pointless without reflection, criticism, and discussion.
    3. Storytelling is structured and something as simple as One Piece definitely can make problems for itself. I mean I'm sure you wouldn't deny the existence of plot holes right lol. No probably you would.
    4. I'm engaged to a member of the forum, and had a drink in Reykjavik with another. My public AP interactions are not what random white noise posters hope.
    *ahem* internet professor champ in the house.

    What exactly did i misunderstand as stated in your first point?
    Last edited by Champ; September 18th, 2013 at 05:14 PM.

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    Default Re: When Will Doflamingo Be Defeated

    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey King View Post
    2. Art is pointless without reflection, criticism, and discussion.
    Just to be clear, I 100% agree with this. Still, in our criticism, we are not allowed to accuse the artist of making a mistake. Because they painted the painting they wanted to. They wrote the story they wanted to. They have presented to us they're art. And by bringing ourselves to it, we have altered it. Our personal experiences, our way of thinking, and our own personal art all reflects in our criticism.

    And since we have changed so much of the art by just observing it, we cannot judge if, in its original state, any mistakes were made. It is impossible.

    And really, that's the flowery crux of my argument.


  9. #9
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    Default Re: When Will Doflamingo Be Defeated

    Quote Originally Posted by Holy Hell View Post
    I had to sit on this for a few seconds before realizing I think Nex is trying to talk about people deviating from patterns and then calling it a "mistake" because it's not playing by the rules or something to him.

    And he's trying to romanticise it
    No, there are basic rules of storytelling that you can simply learn from reading books. Nothing is being romanticized here.

    Hell, everyone knows the most basic rule of storytelling: Exposition --> Rising Action --> Climax --> Falling Action --> Denouement
    Then there's the classic rule of conflict.
    And character change.
    Then there's the basic rules by genre, though all have a shared base in standard story archetypes.

    This is what I mean by rules. I'm not talking about some existential concept. I'm talking about the basic rules of writing you learn in 6th grade English.

    The whole issue here is I think the term "mistake." Which I was only using because that was the base of the argument. Champ said that since it's Oda's story, he doesn't make mistakes. Monkey King responded in his standard way, and I went from there.

    I was never addressing Brennen's original topic, which is why I did not quote him.

    But in the end, from a technical standpoint, breaking the rules is a "mistake."

    Here's the simplest way I can explain what I mean: when a writer ignores the rules of grammar, as most tend to do from time to time, it is technically a mistake. But to the author, for the story, it is correct.

    It's not a 1:1 transfer, but that should work as an explanation.


  10. #10

    Default Re: When Will Doflamingo Be Defeated

    The way you use the word mistake seems super weird and akward to me

    Granted i'm not a naitive speaker but to say that one makes a mistake when one deviates from what's traditional just sounds off

  11. #11

    Default Re: When Will Doflamingo Be Defeated

    Quote Originally Posted by Nex View Post
    The whole issue here is I think the term "mistake."
    basically

    but you know that we know (I haven't even seen anymore what you or zephos or brennen are talking about though, but I know they're fine there) basic writing junk from an art school level and we don't need to go over that. I just really don't like what you're implying with that word and the way you were applying it.

    Like it... honestly sounds really naive? Or it at least gives off the impression of a real square

    i'm not trying to pick a fight here though and i can barely wrap my head around today so i'm not trying to crit you or start a big multi quote debate, just hope you get what i'm saying

  12. #12
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    Default Re: When Will Doflamingo Be Defeated

    Quote Originally Posted by Holy Hell View Post
    basically

    but you know that we know (I haven't even seen anymore what you or zephos or brennen are talking about though, but I know they're fine there) basic writing junk from an art school level and we don't need to go over that. I just really don't like what you're implying with that word and the way you were applying it.

    Like it... honestly sounds really naive? Or it at least gives off the impression of someone who really does think in really structured levels.

    i'm not trying to pick a fight here though and i can barely wrap my head around today so i'm not trying to crit you or start a big debate, just hope you get what i'm saying
    Once again, I' not the one who started with that term. I just used it after champ. And I threw it in quotes.

    Basically when I've been saying "mistake" I've been referring to any rule breaking a writer does. As I explained in other posts. Because technically, when you're not following the rules, you're doing it wrong and making a mistake.

    It's not my ideal terminology. Not even one I would naturally use, I just used it because it was already prompted in the argument I jumped in on. It's stupid and things have gotten nasty because of it, but it is what it is.

    But yeah, I get what you're saying, and I do agree. My use of it has essentially become a case of "you made your bed now lie in it." I'm not trying to start an argument here either.


  13. #13

    Default Re: When Will Doflamingo Be Defeated

    Also wouldn't guidelines be a better word than rules

  14. #14
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    Default Re: When Will Doflamingo Be Defeated

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfwoof View Post
    Also wouldn't guidelines be a better word than rules
    Technically yes, but they're always presented as rules. At least every English class I took laid them out as: these are the rules of writing! You must follow these rules! The dedicated prose classes weren't as strict. But the screenplay classes had a hard-on for the rules. Especially if you want to sell screenplays. And it's kind of true, if you want to have any commercial success as a screenwriter you have to follow the basic rules of storytelling.

    But yeah, guidelines that are heavily recommended.

    Also, I'm not saying these rules are bad. Quite the opposite, they exist for a reason, they are the blueprint of every classic story.


  15. #15

    Default Re: When Will Doflamingo Be Defeated

    Quote Originally Posted by Nex View Post
    if you want to have any commercial success as a screenwriter you have to follow the basic rules of storytelling.
    Or buy a copy of Save the Cat and bullshit your way to success

  16. #16
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    Default Re: When Will Doflamingo Be Defeated

    Can't we all just go ``dunno lol``, and like call off this silly heated clash? I'm sure however or whenever Doffy goes down, Oda will make it great.

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    Default Re: When Will Doflamingo Be Defeated

    Quote Originally Posted by Holy Hell View Post
    Or buy a copy of Save the Cat and bullshit your way to success
    Ha! I had a professor say the exact same thing once. (Though it essentially does teach you the rules of storytelling in a convoluted way.)
    God that book is terrible.

    Honestly, when I think "Rules of Storytelling" I think "Story" by Robert McKee. He pretty much lays it out wonderfully the "right" way to do things. He even shows what would be mistakes. "Save the Cat" is a wanna be version of "Story" by a hack who never actually wrote anything good.


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    Default Re: When Will Doflamingo Be Defeated

    This is why I have fallen out of love with the industry.

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    Default Re: When Will Doflamingo Be Defeated

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCrystalShip View Post
    This is why I have fallen out of love with the industry.
    Yeah, I get that. I'm honestly having much more fun as a Key Grip and Lighting Technician for Sony than I have in the stupid process of trying to sell scripts. It's also why I've been turning back to prose as of late, even though I'm not too great with it. (After being in a screenplay mindset for 4 years though, that'll happen.)


  20. #20
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    Default Re: When Will Doflamingo Be Defeated

    What is Save the Cat

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