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Thread: A Song of Ice and Fire (book thread)

  1. #61

    Default Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (book thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by puffing.cinema View Post
    Guys, do you think that we are going to have a time-skip situation here?
    Books 4 and 5 ARE the timeskip.

    Its why it took martin so long to write, he'd originally planned to skip all that dull "character travels from point A to point B while nothing happens" material entirely and had no idea how to deal with some of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by puffing.cinema View Post
    Also, anyone think that Dany was the one that gave magic back to the world? With the ritual that made the dragons alive? So, basically, once she managed to bring the dragons back to life, the whole world felt the impact and magicians could do magic better, alchemists formula began to function again...and so on; that said, she must be the equivalent of Azor Ahai reborn...or, maybe his wife? So she will either fight the Great Other (which should be the coming Winter, or maybe a leader of the huge mass of the Others that is coming down from the north) or she will be sacrified (and a lot of fans will have their hearts broken forever) to achieve the next Summer? What do you guys think?
    This isn't Dark Souls.

    Finally...do you think that Melisandre has her own agenda? That, if my theory is correct, she could change to Dany's side to...I don't know...try to control her? Be the one to sacrifice her (as she is Azor's wife reborn) and became herself Azor Ahai?
    Everyone has their own agenda.
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  2. #62
    Desire's Bland Moon puffing.cinema's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (book thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Goku View Post
    This isn't Dark Souls.
    hahaha, while I could agree with you on your other thoughts, I need you to explain this. Never played the game.

    ...and it's been a while since I first read it all, so after I finished the re-reading I may come back here to disagree with you on the "book 4,5 = timeskip" claim.

    also, Melisandre's agenda = ?

  3. #63

    Default Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (book thread)

    We only know that Melissandre trully belives and fears the great other, and will follow what her vissions tells her to follow. Wheter she understand it or not.

    Books 4 and 5 are where the timeskip was going to be, claimed by George himself.
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  4. #64

    Default Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (book thread)

    lol I had no idea this thread existed ...

    Some of my favourite ideas about what's to come, more for them being fun than them being likely ...

    1) Jon:

    I don't like the whole "Jon wargs into Ghost then somehow comes back" idea just because I've read almost exactly the same plot line in another book ... which GRRM has probably also read, so maybe he'd be averse to it also. But at the same time, Jon's definitely going to be nearly dead or close to it after that incident. So what happens if Jon's dead? Surely, the likes of Marsh and Yarwyck aren't going to be able to keep the wildlings in line, especially with their non-co-operative attitude. Same with Queen Selyse ... or anyone, really. They need Jon to hold them together, really. So it would be in their interest, eventually, to take back a somehow alive Jon. Annnnd, Jon's at the Wall, which is cold, which could help somehow (cryo? :p) and more significantly, there's that thing Aemon said - fire destroys, but ice preserves or whatever. He implied he'd only actually lived so long because the Wall was somehow sustaining him. So it could too with Jon to some extent. In any case, Smellisandre's still at Castle Black ... Stannis left her behind. So surely, she's there to revive Jon? It makes sense for her, since, even if she doesn't see Jon's full importance, she recognises him as an important piece for Stannis, whom she believes is Azor Ahai come again.

    I think it's particularly conspicuous that Jon was elected 998th Lord Commander (... according to tradition, even though Sam says there were probably less). After all, if he's dead, they'll have another one elected, right? Then Jon can come back and retake command and he'd be the thousandth.

    Arguably, Jon dying and being revived can loophole his vows somehow, and, having had to flee the Wall, he could do something in the North (like help Stannis or whatever) before going back to the Wall (which he'd surely do after deliberating for a bit out of a sense of HONOUR AND DUTY).

    2) Meereen/Daenerys:

    Victarion's timely arrival and Barristan rallying Meereen beats the Yunkish forces, plus Tyrion convinces Plumm to turn and either the Sons or the Windblown free the hostages ... Then Victarion, Moqorro, Tyrion and Barristan tame Rhaegal and Viserion to some extent (and Tyrion becomes a rider! Wait ...) which might well involve Victarion dying (see Moqorro's dodgy prophecy). Meanwhile, Daenerys manages to tame Drogon somehow, by like hunting down Jhaqo's Khalasar and eating them or something. Then she flies to Meereen and the Meereen group fly out to find her and they meet in the middle :p

    And then the Volantene fleet arrive, or Daenerys leaves and meets the Volantene fleet at sea, and in either case, Daenerys incinerates them or something. Maybe in the intervening time, Meereen (with the aid of Victarion's fleet) harasses and/or besieges some or all of Tolos, Elyria and New Ghis.

    Then Daenerys gets to Volantis and the slaves have taken the city and she meets Marwyn there or on the way.

    3) Winterfell:

    Stannis finds out about Arnolf from Theon. Manderly finds Stannis and concocts a plan with him. He takes lightbringer and goes to Winterfell, claiming he'd found Stannis's snow-killed army and killed him etc. Ramsay sends the letter. Manderly forces, maybe with some of Stannis's mixed in, takes Winterfell from within.

    Asha can then totally get Theon later, call the kingsmoot invalid on account of Theon not being there, call another one (maybe after Euron's dead) and then become queen. Err ...

    4) The Crownlands and Stormlands:

    Surely Connington will march on King's Landing. Cersei might be able to retake power, and she has the Tyrell and Lannister forces kind of there (but Euron's drawn some away) ... but basically the Faith runs the city now. And surely they're the ones who can defend (or otherwise) the city should it come under attack. And there will be a sand snake on each hill soon enough. In any case, Loras on Dragonstone is pretty suspicious, and maybe there will be, idk, a Tyrell coup or something. If Aegon was already on the throne by the time Daenerys arrived, that would be interesting, wouldn't it ...

    5) Oldtown:

    Sam has the Horn of Winter, because why not.

    And he'll kill Euron with an arrow through his covered eye, because why not.

    After Alleras = Sarella improves his archery, of course, because she's an ace. And somehow Lazy Leo and the Alchemist (whatever he's doing there ...) will be important. And maybe Sam will learn something about the Others in the Citadel for him to relate to people who matter or something.

    6) Bran:

    Chapter 1: "Why do I have to be a tree? I'm sad."

    Chapter 2: "Jojen died. I'm sad."

    Maybe with some exposition about the Others thrown in.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Goku View Post
    Books 4 and 5 ARE the timeskip.
    Quote Originally Posted by maxterdexter View Post
    Books 4 and 5 are where the timeskip was going to be, claimed by George himself.
    Although the timeskip was going to be much longer. Like 5 years? So it puts us in an odd position for some characters ... Like Sam being in the Citadel forging his chain when there's not enough time for him to get more than a few links ... or Arya and Sansa's apprenticeship stages needing to complete and lead to some sort of resolution pretty fast ... or Daenerys still having an awful lot to do and an awfully large number of miles to travel to become relevant to everyone else ...

  5. #65

    Default Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (book thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by puffing.cinema View Post
    hahaha, while I could agree with you on your other thoughts, I need you to explain this. Never played the game.
    Would take too long to explain. if you didn't get the joke, then you didn't get it.

    Basically your idea is a little too fantastical for the grounded world they have. Which has fantastic elements yes, but isn't going to have the entire world shaped by one person dying to kindle a summer and summoning all magic back to the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Supernova122 View Post
    Although the timeskip was going to be much longer. Like 5 years? So it puts us in an odd position for some characters ... Like Sam being in the Citadel forging his chain when there's not enough time for him to get more than a few links ... or Arya and Sansa's apprenticeship stages needing to complete and lead to some sort of resolution pretty fast ... or Daenerys still having an awful lot to do and an awfully large number of miles to travel to become relevant to everyone else ...
    He got characters from point A to point B. Excruciatingly so, without a whole lot happening in some cases. He accomplished what was needed in that respect.

    Plus, there's timeskips, and then there's *timeskips.* Characters can move forward a few weeks or a month at a time between chapters and a lot of time can pass in the course of a book... but he's not going to do a training montage "five years later" because... thats how he would have started book 4 if thats what he was going to do, he's said so himself.

    I mean for instance, the first book pretty much skipped over traveling from Winterfell to the king's domain early in the book, and that was certainly a journey of several weeks if not a couple months. Meanwhile book 5 spent its entirety getting Tyrion across a landmass.
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  6. #66

    Default Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (book thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Supernova122 View Post
    lol I had no idea this thread existed ...

    Some of my favourite ideas about what's to come, more for them being fun than them being likely ...

    1) Jon:

    I don't like the whole "Jon wargs into Ghost then somehow comes back" idea just because I've read almost exactly the same plot line in another book ... which GRRM has probably also read, so maybe he'd be averse to it also. But at the same time, Jon's definitely going to be nearly dead or close to it after that incident. So what happens if Jon's dead? Surely, the likes of Marsh and Yarwyck aren't going to be able to keep the wildlings in line, especially with their non-co-operative attitude. Same with Queen Selyse ... or anyone, really. They need Jon to hold them together, really. So it would be in their interest, eventually, to take back a somehow alive Jon. Annnnd, Jon's at the Wall, which is cold, which could help somehow (cryo? :p) and more significantly, there's that thing Aemon said - fire destroys, but ice preserves or whatever. He implied he'd only actually lived so long because the Wall was somehow sustaining him. So it could too with Jon to some extent. In any case, Smellisandre's still at Castle Black ... Stannis left her behind. So surely, she's there to revive Jon? It makes sense for her, since, even if she doesn't see Jon's full importance, she recognises him as an important piece for Stannis, whom she believes is Azor Ahai come again.

    I think it's particularly conspicuous that Jon was elected 998th Lord Commander (... according to tradition, even though Sam says there were probably less). After all, if he's dead, they'll have another one elected, right? Then Jon can come back and retake command and he'd be the thousandth.

    Arguably, Jon dying and being revived can loophole his vows somehow, and, having had to flee the Wall, he could do something in the North (like help Stannis or whatever) before going back to the Wall (which he'd surely do after deliberating for a bit out of a sense of HONOUR AND DUTY).

    2) Meereen/Daenerys:

    Victarion's timely arrival and Barristan rallying Meereen beats the Yunkish forces, plus Tyrion convinces Plumm to turn and either the Sons or the Windblown free the hostages ... Then Victarion, Moqorro, Tyrion and Barristan tame Rhaegal and Viserion to some extent (and Tyrion becomes a rider! Wait ...) which might well involve Victarion dying (see Moqorro's dodgy prophecy). Meanwhile, Daenerys manages to tame Drogon somehow, by like hunting down Jhaqo's Khalasar and eating them or something. Then she flies to Meereen and the Meereen group fly out to find her and they meet in the middle :p

    And then the Volantene fleet arrive, or Daenerys leaves and meets the Volantene fleet at sea, and in either case, Daenerys incinerates them or something. Maybe in the intervening time, Meereen (with the aid of Victarion's fleet) harasses and/or besieges some or all of Tolos, Elyria and New Ghis.

    Then Daenerys gets to Volantis and the slaves have taken the city and she meets Marwyn there or on the way.

    3) Winterfell:

    Stannis finds out about Arnolf from Theon. Manderly finds Stannis and concocts a plan with him. He takes lightbringer and goes to Winterfell, claiming he'd found Stannis's snow-killed army and killed him etc. Ramsay sends the letter. Manderly forces, maybe with some of Stannis's mixed in, takes Winterfell from within.

    Asha can then totally get Theon later, call the kingsmoot invalid on account of Theon not being there, call another one (maybe after Euron's dead) and then become queen. Err ...

    4) The Crownlands and Stormlands:

    Surely Connington will march on King's Landing. Cersei might be able to retake power, and she has the Tyrell and Lannister forces kind of there (but Euron's drawn some away) ... but basically the Faith runs the city now. And surely they're the ones who can defend (or otherwise) the city should it come under attack. And there will be a sand snake on each hill soon enough. In any case, Loras on Dragonstone is pretty suspicious, and maybe there will be, idk, a Tyrell coup or something. If Aegon was already on the throne by the time Daenerys arrived, that would be interesting, wouldn't it ...

    5) Oldtown:

    Sam has the Horn of Winter, because why not.

    And he'll kill Euron with an arrow through his covered eye, because why not.

    After Alleras = Sarella improves his archery, of course, because she's an ace. And somehow Lazy Leo and the Alchemist (whatever he's doing there ...) will be important. And maybe Sam will learn something about the Others in the Citadel for him to relate to people who matter or something.

    6) Bran:

    Chapter 1: "Why do I have to be a tree? I'm sad."

    Chapter 2: "Jojen died. I'm sad."

    Maybe with some exposition about the Others thrown in.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---





    Although the timeskip was going to be much longer. Like 5 years? So it puts us in an odd position for some characters ... Like Sam being in the Citadel forging his chain when there's not enough time for him to get more than a few links ... or Arya and Sansa's apprenticeship stages needing to complete and lead to some sort of resolution pretty fast ... or Daenerys still having an awful lot to do and an awfully large number of miles to travel to become relevant to everyone else ...
    hahaha, first part was somewhat coherent, but after that it went totaly south.
    About Jon. like i posted before i am not completely on board with him dieing. Because IIRC jon felt cold and than the chapter ended. So maybe the cold part is not because he is dieing but because the others finaly marched on the wall. Everybody scared as shit and trying to defend the wall, millisandra has time to heal Jon and than the counter offensive can begin in some way. But your idea about him dieing, being rivived but only returns after somebody else was lord commander, was also a nice approach

  7. #67
    Aspiring Film Critic TLC's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (book thread)

    Now that the knot has finally been untied, maybe these books can stop sucking. I tell a lie, I liked both Feast for Crows and Dance with Dragons but geez, if someone told me they thought they were very weak, I'd agree because NOTHING really happens in them lol

  8. #68
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    Default Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (book thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by TLC View Post
    If Martin wanted to timeskip, he'd have bypassed the Mereen knot all together. Plus future spoiled chapters indicate that we won't be getting a timeskip.
    The Meereenese knot is there for a reason. Certain characters needed to come together (Tyrion, Jorah, Victarion, Moqorro, Ben) and you can't do that by just jumping over it. But there's almost absolutely going to be a timeskip between The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring - obvious connection to the book titles aside.

    The more you look at certain character's arcs, the more obvious it becomes that they can't possibly move forward without a little jump in time. Arya needs AT LEAST three to five more years of training to master what she's doing. Having her go back to Westeros at any point before that is ridiculous. Daenerys is also in dire need of a timeskip, since she can't realistically fight off the Yunkai'i, rally her forces, move her armies across the world and begin a siege all in one book's time alone. Not to mention her dragons still need time to fully grow and be more trained.
    Then there's other plot lines which look to benefit greatly from a timeskip: Aegon needs to become a bigger problem for King's Landing, Sam needs to become a maester, Littlefinger's plot needs time, Stannis needs to rally the north (or be crushed by it), the Dornish need to start moving, etc etc.

  9. #69
    Desire's Bland Moon puffing.cinema's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (book thread)

    "Meanwhile book 5 spent its entirety getting Tyrion across a landmass." and Brienne getting lost and searching for someone who is as safe as she can be right now.

  10. #70

    Default Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (book thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Saturday View Post
    The Meereenese knot is there for a reason. Certain characters needed to come together (Tyrion, Jorah, Victarion, Moqorro, Ben) and you can't do that by just jumping over it.
    Of those names, which one of them is a main character? Just one.

    Did you need 300 pages to get him to that point? Not in the least.

    Timeskip. Intro tyrion.
    "Who are you? What are you doing here?"
    "I was framed for killing a mad brat of a king. So I travelled a ways to what seemed like my best bet, the rumored Dragon girl. ALong the way I got tangled up in this band. I owe them, they owe me... we'll see how things shake out."

    There. That's ALL that was needed. NOTHING of Tyrion's journey in book 5 seems like it was all that relevent until the last chapter or two, especially since he didn't even meet Dany in it. Totally skippable.

    Same thing with Arya's training and Cersei's problems. Most of books 4 and 5 can be summed up in a couple vauge sentences, there's very very little that needed to be shown in that ammount of detail... but too much to skim over and jus tgive in a monologue at the same time.

    But there's almost absolutely going to be a timeskip between The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring - obvious connection to the book titles aside.
    Even a long winter is only a couple months. Sure, prophecized a long one and all, but...

    The more you look at certain character's arcs, the more obvious it becomes that they can't possibly move forward without a little jump in time. Arya needs AT LEAST three to five more years of training to master what she's doing. Having her go back to Westeros at any point before that is ridiculous. Daenerys is also in dire need of a timeskip, since she can't realistically fight off the Yunkai'i, rally her forces, move her armies across the world and begin a siege all in one book's time alone. Not to mention her dragons still need time to fully grow and be more trained.
    What makes you think any character will finish what they started or go down the path they seem to be on? You you relaly think Tyrion is going to find his lost love? Or that Brienne will find the Stark girls? That Sam needs to become a full master by the end, rather than just be on the path to it? Why would Dany have more control over her dragons later than she does now? As disconnected as her story has been, she might not pay off the way you expect at all. The entire point of book five might have been to have her lose the armies and the war and thus need to move on. Martin sets characters on roads then has life get in the way.

    If he was going to timeskip, he would have done so at the point he said he'd planned to where he was having massive writers block for ten years.

    ANyway, like I said, there's massive timeskips which Martin isn't going to do. And then there's little hops between chapters. He's not going to just go "and then five years later" after all the minutia. He might cover more time in the course of it, skipping a month of travel time here or there, and cover a year or two in the course of it though.
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  11. #71
    Aspiring Film Critic TLC's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (book thread)

    Tyrion needs to live and become a king of something though be it Casterly Rock or whatever. It's kinda set in stone, foreshadowed since the very beginning and it would be trolling by Martin if he killed him just for the sake of subversions. Subversions don't work just because they're shocking. They need to have a point to them, too. Ned's death had a point, Rob's death had a point, Jon's death had no point which is why he's probably not dead. Killing Tyrion would just feel like going against what the character has been built up for.

  12. #72
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    Default Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (book thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Goku View Post
    Of those names, which one of them is a main character? Just one.
    I was under the impression you didn't need to be a main character to have a coherent story. That's not how a good narrative works; you can't skip around vaguely between where characters are. Victarion is a POV on his way to interact with Dany. Moqorro is a very important new character who seems to want to help Dany on her way. Jorah and Tyrion are main characters. Both. Though that doesn't matter, since, like I said, you don't need to be a "main character" to receive a coherent plot.

    There. That's ALL that was needed. NOTHING of Tyrion's journey in book 5 seems like it was all that relevent until the last chapter or two, especially since he didn't even meet Dany in it. Totally skippable.
    Totally skip-able to you. I'd hate to be the poor fool who listened to your advice and skipped from book 3 to 7 and expected to know what the hell was happening.
    Tyrion needed to meet Illyrio. He needed to meet Connington and Aegon (he's the one that sends them back to invade Westeros), he needed to meet Penny and Jorah to head to Meereen. We also got some clues from him about the Red Priests wanting something to do with Dany. Did you forget all this? Or did you really skim everything? Whether you liked it or not is one thing, but don't say it's not necessary.
    It's a story about his journey. You can't go from point A to D without seeing what's in between. I don't understand why people like you are so adamant about everything being rushed with no adventure or logical progression whatsoever.

    Especially when you consider that we're having this conversation on a board about One Piece.
    Can you say irony?


    Even a long winter is only a couple months. Sure, prophecized a long one and all, but...
    Winter lasts for decades, and this one might last even longer. How can you say you're a fan of this series and not know this by now? What do you think the whole deal behind "Winter is Coming" was? "Generations come and go all during winter."

    If he was going to timeskip, he would have done so at the point he said he'd planned to where he was having massive writers block for ten years.
    The reason AFFC took so long is because he didn't quite know how to get into it; I have no idea where you heard it was writer's block. He had the stories planned out and knew a lot of new characters and plots would be introduced, but things (naturally) needed to be fleshed out. Feast was originally going to be one book, but because it was so long, he had to basically go back, rewrite/edit it apart and split it to be in a more convenient format.
    The fact he's talked about a timeskip coming into play (which didn't happen during Feast) only further cements the theory that it's going to happen in the future between the next two books.

  13. #73

    Default Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (book thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Goku View Post
    Even a long winter is only a couple months. Sure, prophecized a long one and all, but...
    This is Westeros' world, Last winter lasted 4-7 years. This sumer is older than the stark kids.

    Besides, somewhere at George's house there's bound to be the discarded chapters where all of this is told in flashbacks, he didn't like it, so he chose to go the long way through.

    People already dislike Aegon because he came out of nowhere, it wouldn't be wise to even take out his introduction.
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  14. #74

    Default Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (book thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Saturday View Post
    Totally skip-able to you. I'd hate to be the poor fool who listened to your advice and skipped from book 3 to 7 and expected to know what the hell was happening.
    Martin didn't WRITE it that way, so of course NOW its no longer a reasonable solution because he added a lot of little details along the way.

    But the gist of the plotlines in which almost nothing happened could have been conveyed very quickly had he chosen to go that route like he originally intended, AND WHICH IS HOW HE SPENT THE ENTIRE FIRST YEAR OF BOOK FOUR WRITING IT.

    Theres details there NOW that aren't so skippable. And in some plotlines more than others. But if he had sped along like he had planned to? Most of those details aren't incredibly important and could be conveyed in other ways.

    Nothing big got accomplished in books 4 and 5. But about a thousand little minor things did. Thats why he hit the block and couldn't just skip it, because it was conveying those details in recaps and flashbacks that wasn't working.

    . Did you forget all this? Or did you really skim everything? Whether you liked it or not is one thing, but don't say it's not necessary.
    I read the book 3 years ago when it came out, and the previous one NINE YEARS AGO when it came out, and it's been another year or two on that since I read the first three. So no, the the small stuff with the completely incidental minor characters hasn't stuck with me at all.

    I don't understand why people like you are so adamant about everything being rushed with no adventure or logical progression whatsoever.
    The rush comes from him taking decades to get through it. Just having a journey with little happening is fine, its all about the character stuff. I read Wheel of Time as it was coming out at its point of slowest crawl. But its really irritating when thats all you get for another 6 years with no real forward progression in any significant way... AGAIN.

    In particular, Arya's blinded cliffhanger was annoying, and Brienne's one word "death" scene... where we spent 6 years with her dead, and now get to instead spend 5 years wondering what she did to get out of it.

    It's ot his fault, the writing process is what it is, especially on something this complex. But...
    Book six won't be out until 2015 *at the earliest*. Storm of Swords came out in 2000. Having a slow middle will be fine when the series is finished. Not so good when its all you get of a specific plotline for somewhere in the range of 15 years real time and that plotline is really lackluster.

    I have no idea where you heard it was writer's block.
    Martin said it himself. Repeatedly. For years.

    He knew the ending. He'd planned to speed through some stuff and cover everything in a massive monologue. And he spent a year writing it that way and it didn't work. He didn't know how to do the middle because he had originally planned to skip a lot of it, and just relate the broad strokes, and the Mereneese knot (a phrase he himself coined) in particular stopped him cold. Some stories worked with timeskips, but a lot of them did not.

    Hell, IN BOOK FOUR he said the split wouldn't delay things very long, and he expected book five to be out the next year... and then it took six. He wrote and rewrote scenes to make them work endlessly because it just wasn't fitting right... That's writer's block like crazy. You may know the goal, but getting to it is an endless process of rewrites and scratched attempts.

    Quote Originally Posted by maxterdexter View Post
    This is Westeros' world, Last winter lasted 4-7 years. This sumer is older than the stark kids.
    That was a JOKE. Yeesh.

    Anyway.
    Doesn't mean those years have to pass suddenly, or as a random time skip.

    Again, for like the third time now... you can have multiple small passages of time and age things forward in the natural momentum of the narrative... which I think was his intent... without doing a flat out training montage time skipping five years the way its being talked about here.... and Martin is prone to taking characters OFF the paths they seem to be on anyway.
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  15. #75
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    Default Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (book thread)

    To make things a little bit clearer these are grrm's words about the mereenese knot and the supposed timeskip
    Spoiler:
    I'm obsessed with the five-year gap you originally planned in the middle of the series. How would that have happened?
    Originally, there was not supposed to be any gap. There was just supposed to be a passage of time as the book went forward. My original concept back in 1991 was, I would start with these characters as children, and they would get older. If you pick up Arya at eight, the second chapter would be a couple months later, and she would be eight and a half and [then] she'd be nine. [This would happen] all within the space of a book.

    But when I actually got into writing them, the events have a certain momentum. So you write a chapter and then in your next chapter, it can't be six months later, because something's going to happen the next day. So you have to write what happens the next day, and then you have to write what happens the week after that. And the news gets to some other place.
    And pretty soon, you've written hundreds of pages and a week has passed, instead of the six months, or the year that you wanted to pass. So you end a book, and you've had a tremendous amount of events — but they've taken place over a short time frame, and the eight-year-old kid is still eight years old.
    So that really took hold of me for the first three books. When it became apparent that that had taken hold of me, I came up with the idea of the five year gap. "Time is not passing here as I want it to pass, so I will jump forward five years in time." And I will come back to these characters when they're a little more grown up. And that is what I tried to do when I started writing Feast for Crows. So [the gap] would have come after A Storm of Swords and before Feast for Crows.
    But what I soon discovered — and I struggled with this for a year — [the gap] worked well with some characters like Arya — who at end the of Storm of Swords has taken off for Braavos. You can come back five years later, and she has had five years of training and all that. Or Bran, who was taken in by the Children of the Forest and the green ceremony, [so you could] come back to him five years later. That’s good. Works for him.
    Other characters, it didn’t work at all. I'm writing the Cersei chapters in King's Landing, and saying, "Well yeah, in five years, six different guys have served as Hand and there was this conspiracy four years ago, and this thing happened three years ago." And I'm presenting all of this in flashbacks, and that wasn't working. The other alternative was [that] nothing happened in those six years, which seemed anticlimactic. The Jon Snow stuff was even worse, because at the end of Storm he gets elected Lord Commander. I'm picking up there, and writing 'Well five years ago, I was elected Lord Commander. Nothing much has happened since then, but now things are starting to happen again." I finally, after a year, said, "I can't make this work."
    http://io9.com/george-r-r-martin-ans...-and-886133300
    Now that we know how the "Meereenese knot" played out, what was the problem with this? For example, was it the order in which Dany met various characters, or who, when, and how someone would try to take the dragons?
    Now I can explain things. It was a confluence of many, many factors: lets start with the offer from Xaro to give Dany ships, the refusal of which then leads to Qarth's declaration of war. Then there's the marriage of Daenerys to pacify the city. Then there's the arrival of the Yunkish army at the gates of Meereen, there's the order of arrival of various people going her way (Tyrion, Quentyn, Victarion, Aegon, Marwyn, etc.), and then there's Daario, this dangerous sellsword and the question of whether Dany really wants him or not, there's hte plague, there's Drogon's return to Meereen...
    All of these things were balls I had thrown up into the air, and they're all linked and chronologically entwined. The return of Drogon to the city was something I explored as happening at different times. For example, I wrote three different versions of Quentyn's arrival at Meereen: one where he arrived long before Dany's marriage, one where he arrived much later, and one where he arrived just the day before the marriage (which is how it ended up being in the novel). And I had to write all three versions to be able to compare and see how these different arrival points affected the stories of the other characters. Including the story of a character who actually hasn't arrived yet.
    http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/..._in_Barcelona/


  16. #76
    Banned Rank: Failed Mutineer
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    Default Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (book thread)

    it sounds like he clearly wants these characters in a certain place 5 years from now so im guessing thats where the real meat of the story picks up.

    In the future after all these books come out people will probably recommended skip feast and dance because he was clearly just trying to get to the Winds

  17. #77
    Empress of Diabetes Miss Saturday's Avatar
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    Getting that weddingu kekki.

    Default Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (book thread)

    Well I for one am glad he didn't skip anything.

    Spoiler:
    I get complaints sometimes that nothing happens — but they're defining "nothing," I think, differently than I am. I don't think it all has to battles and sword fights and assassinations. Character development and [people] changing is good, and there are some tough things in there that I think a lot of writers skip over. I'm glad I didn't skip over these things.[For example], things that Arya is learning. The things Bran is learning. Learning is not inherently an interesting thing to write about. It's not an easy thing to write about. In the movies, they always handle it with a montage. Rocky can't run very fast. He can't catch the chicken. But then you do a montage, and you cut a lot of images together, and now only a minute later in the film, Rocky is really strong and he is catching the chicken.


    And that has been interesting, you know. Jon Snow as Lord Commander. Dany as Queen, struggling with rule. So many books don't do that. There is a sense when you're writing something in high fantasy, you're in a dialogue with all the other high fantasy writers that have written. And there is always this presumption that if you are a good man, you will be a good king. [Like] Tolkien — in Return of the King, Aragorn comes back and becomes king, and then [we read that] "he ruled wisely for three hundred years." Okay, fine. It is easy to write that sentence, “He ruled wisely”.
    What does that mean, he ruled wisely? What were his tax policies? What did he do when two lords were making war on each other? Or barbarians were coming in from the North? What was his immigration policy? What about equal rights for Orcs? I mean did he just pursue a genocidal policy, "Let’s kill all these fucking Orcs who are still left over"? Or did he try to redeem them? You never actually see the nitty-gritty of ruling.

    I guess there is an element of fantasy readers that don't want to see that. I find that fascinating. Seeing someone like Dany actually trying to deal with the vestments of being a queen and getting factions and guilds and [managing the] economy. They burnt all the fields [in Meereen]. They've got nothing to import any more. They're not getting any money. I find this stuff interesting. And fortunately, enough of my readers who love the books do as well.

  18. #78

    Default Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (book thread)

    GRRM writing about wandering around and the "boring" learning process for characters gets my wholehearted support. I love his world building and all the little details of the novels. I don't care how long it takes for him to release the next book, I only hope he gets to finish the series without health issues hindering him.
    "Where we're going, we won't need eyes to see."

  19. #79

    Default Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (book thread)

    Sumary of a reading of the Lanister chapters of The World of Ice and Fire: From the founding of the Rock to "Rains of Castamere"

    http://www.historyofwesteros.com/con...lands-reading/
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  20. #80

    Default Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (book thread)

    Just to be safe, spoilers for Episode 4x10 ahead:

    Spoiler:
    Okay, so no Lady Stoneheart after all. :(
    I guess next season will build her up a little before the reveal so in a year it will be just as fine. Maybe.

    What I'm really sad about is the omission of the Tysha reveal during Tyrion's escape. They could have had a part of the tent scene from S1 in the "previously on"s to remind people. Or just bring her up again in another episode.

    Other than that, I really liked the episode. Especially Arya being so interested in Brienne.
    Just something fun I made during the latest Survivor playing as Monji:
    Spoiler:


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