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Thread: General Fire Emblem Thread - Oh No! I'm Late for the Brigand Exam!

  1. #9141

    Default Re: General Fire Emblem Thread - Oh No! I'm Late for the Brigand Exam!

    Quote Originally Posted by .access timeco. View Post
    Ashe, Ignatz and Petra turned out to be the only bad units on my first playthrough.
    You must have got screwed by RNG, Petras the best non lord & non Byleth unit in the game.

  2. #9142

    Default Re: General Fire Emblem Thread - Oh No! I'm Late for the Brigand Exam!

    Don't know about anyone else, but Ferdinand, Caspar, and Annette basically sucked for me. Bernie was good for a while, but became less and less useful towards the end, mainly only good for long range attacks. Felix, however, was a beast with a bow.

  3. #9143

    Default Re: General Fire Emblem Thread - Oh No! I'm Late for the Brigand Exam!

    Ferdinand is a great character but not a great unit just due to stats spread

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Maddening difficulty is like Conquest Lunatic level, fucking Mock Battle is a trial.

  4. #9144

    Default Re: General Fire Emblem Thread - Oh No! I'm Late for the Brigand Exam!

    Caspar was one of my absolute best units. Actually, all of my War Masters turned out to be borderline broken, even Alois who I neglected until the penultimate chapter - he was 15 levels behind everyone when I decided to raise his support levels and suddenly he was already overpowered.

    Barbarossa Claude was definitely the best unit to the point it was almost unfair use him.
    Then Raphael and Caspar as War Masters.
    Then Hilda as a Great Knight (I regret not raising her Brawl, though. With Healing Focus she would have been absurd).
    Marianne and Lorenz surprisingly became my main offensive magic units thanks to being my only Dark and Holy Knights despite lacking the damage output of monsters like Lysithea (who I kept, along with Annette, Dorothea, Manuela and Mercedes, as Gremory but then the lack of mobility killed the offensive usefulness - Dorothea Meteors aside).
    Leonie was a very solid unit as well as a Bow Knight (she, Hilda and Marianne formed a beautiful to look at trio at the last battle). Bernadetta was also a Bow Knight, good too, but Leonie was better.
    Cyril as a bow focused Wyvern Lord was also one of the main cleaning units.
    I often avoided using the monastery staff/Seiros Knights because they felt like the "early promoted" units we used to get on earlier FE games and I always felt cheap abusing them.
    Ignatz was a dancer, so he was needed regardless of his stats.
    Linhardt suffered from me not knowing what to do with him after he mastered Warlock - I can't emphasize how much I hate the lack of a pure magic master class for male units.
    Felix would probably be one of the top units if I didn't dislike the character. Just like Lysithea and Annette his damage output was ridiculous despite his frailty, plus Mortal Savant has good enough mobility to keep him on the front lines.
    Sylvain was a Wyvern Lord and Ingrid a Falcon Knight. Sylvain was pretty good, but I never felt like using him. Ingrid was meh.


    I never used the stat enhancing items because... I don't know, I don't like to, so I kept them at raw state instead of trying to fix their flaws.
    Last edited by .access timeco.; September 11th, 2019 at 11:40 AM.

  5. #9145

    Default Re: General Fire Emblem Thread - Oh No! I'm Late for the Brigand Exam!

    All of the Lords are hilariously broken and above the rest of the units, they can just win maps alone since how broken they can be.
    Spoiler:
    Like not even Rhea and her kin can't match up



    Still wish there were more master classes

  6. #9146

    Default Re: General Fire Emblem Thread - Oh No! I'm Late for the Brigand Exam!

    Well, that was a complete turnaround. In one day, I managed to recruit all but one of the other students (Petra being the only holdout). Now I don't even know what to do with them all.

  7. #9147

    Default Re: General Fire Emblem Thread - Oh No! I'm Late for the Brigand Exam!

    I never really saw the appeal of recruiting all the other students unless you want to fill a gap your class have (Like an extra Rider or Flier).

    But then again, Cyril can easily fill that gap for you.

  8. #9148

    Default Re: General Fire Emblem Thread - Oh No! I'm Late for the Brigand Exam!

    For the record, Leonie is doing awesome as a Dark Knight (though I need to grind Lance to get Lancefaire back) and Ignatz is doing surprisingly well as a Mortal Savant. He's been spamming Blizzard. Also with the latest update I had more Renown than I knew what to do with. I finished off all 4 statues and raised a bunch of skill levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by KageKageKing View Post
    I never really saw the appeal of recruiting all the other students unless you want to fill a gap your class have (Like an extra Rider or Flier).

    But then again, Cyril can easily fill that gap for you.
    Uhh...
    • Because you like characters and don't want to have to possibly kill them later
    • A lot more support conversations possible, for character development
    • More Paralogue battles with lore and rewards
    • More characters hanging around post-skip with worldbuilding dialogue
    • Because it's not that hard so why not?

  9. #9149

    Default Re: General Fire Emblem Thread - Oh No! I'm Late for the Brigand Exam!

    Cyril just sucks as a character but you can just recruit him get the paralouge and throw him back into the dumpster where he belongs.

    Did the same with lorenz (outside of pairing him with someone) to gets his Paralouge and then gave his exclusive item to Lysithea

  10. #9150

    Default Re: General Fire Emblem Thread - Oh No! I'm Late for the Brigand Exam!

    Cyril and Lorenz are the only two characters I still actually hate, now that I'm a decent ways into run #2. Also I feel that Lorenz's crest weapon was absolutely meant for Lysithea. She even has the crest for it.

  11. #9151

    Default Re: General Fire Emblem Thread - Oh No! I'm Late for the Brigand Exam!

    Cyril has his charms too when you do his support with Hilda..
    And..thats about it.
    You know I thought he's going to be this overpowered unit because you only get him later but turns out he's pretty eh.
    Wasn't there this villager with a bucket on his head in awakening that got so insanely strong but was difficult to raise at first?
    Also I want a DLC that makes Anna playable.

    I got nothing to say but that Lorenz still suck and I have no way to use Ignatz properly.
    Casper and Hilda as war master or just pure warrior(hilda) or brawler(casper) axe/knuckles build demolishes.
    Especially Hilda.
    Also give Casper dragon claws and he takes down bosses and specific beasts like tissue.
    Last boss of church route was a joke with the claws.

  12. #9152

    Default Re: General Fire Emblem Thread - Oh No! I'm Late for the Brigand Exam!

    Oh, god, this is so frustr-Siri, how do I force people to love Lorenz?

    Btw, now on my second playthrough I am planning to have Hilda become a Brawling Wyvern Lord. Just love the idea of her riding a dragon towards the target just to end up punching it.

  13. #9153
    21st Century Schizoid Man Johnny B. Decent's Avatar
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    Default Re: General Fire Emblem Thread - Oh No! I'm Late for the Brigand Exam!

    Quote Originally Posted by .access timeco. View Post
    Oh, god, this is so frustr-Siri, how do I force people to love Lorenz?

    Btw, now on my second playthrough I am planning to have Hilda become a Brawling Wyvern Lord. Just love the idea of her riding a dragon towards the target just to end up punching it.
    I think Gauntlets are infantry-only?

  14. #9154

    Default Re: General Fire Emblem Thread - Oh No! I'm Late for the Brigand Exam!

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny B. Decent View Post
    I think Gauntlets are infantry-only?
    .......... Siri, how do I-

  15. #9155

    Default Re: General Fire Emblem Thread - Oh No! I'm Late for the Brigand Exam!

    Quote Originally Posted by .access timeco. View Post
    Oh, god, this is so frustr-Siri, how do I force people to love Lorenz?

    You can only polish a turd so much :P

  16. #9156

    Default Re: General Fire Emblem Thread - Oh No! I'm Late for the Brigand Exam!

    I am actually honestly interested in hearing why someone would like Lorenz. Personality-wise, that is -- unit-wise, there have already been arguments made for why he's never going to be at the top of the list.

    To me he's intolerably arrogant, smug, entitled, uptight, and slimy. He thinks he's popular with the ladies when there's literally an entire support about how girls are feeling harassed by him. He's like the only character I've come across who gets worse the more he's developed. Every single conversation I can think of off the top of my head makes me hate him -- his refusing to break bread with Raphael, being monocle-droppingly shocked at the notion of having to care for his own weapons, thinking he deserves to be the true leader and that he's just tagging along to stop Claude from being incompetent, being a complete snob about his tea and company. I literally cannot understand what there is to like about him.

  17. #9157

    Default Re: General Fire Emblem Thread - Oh No! I'm Late for the Brigand Exam!

    Quote Originally Posted by Foolio View Post
    I am actually honestly interested in hearing why someone would like Lorenz. Personality-wise, that is -- unit-wise, there have already been arguments made for why he's never going to be at the top of the list.

    To me he's intolerably arrogant, smug, entitled, uptight, and slimy. He thinks he's popular with the ladies when there's literally an entire support about how girls are feeling harassed by him. He's like the only character I've come across who gets worse the more he's developed. Every single conversation I can think of off the top of my head makes me hate him -- his refusing to break bread with Raphael, being monocle-droppingly shocked at the notion of having to care for his own weapons, thinking he deserves to be the true leader and that he's just tagging along to stop Claude from being incompetent, being a complete snob about his tea and company. I literally cannot understand what there is to like about him.
    Short version: Lorenz is a snob who thinks too highly of himself. But that's only because all his life he put all the effort he could to become the perfect noble and exceed in everything. He knows he was imbued with the power and prestige of the nobility, but he believes all of that must serve one single purpose: help those with less power than him. That's a responsibility he believes was put on his shoulders when he was born, he knows he could refuse it but he gladly chose to accept it and does that with... well, nobility. And making sure he will properly answer to that responsibility is the absolute focus of his entire character and every breath he takes... except when it's tea time.
    The fact he acts like a complete prick may lead people to misjudge him as being a bad person and that's fine because it's intentional, that's the reaction he causes in-game too, but if you cristalize your opinion on him based on the first impression you will totally miss on how much he changes. Like Marianne, he is a character that grows through the game, he is supposed to start at his lowest and only go up from there. Unlike Claude and Hilda (to keep the comparisons only among my favorites) who remain the same throughout the whole game and have their character development based on expansion instead of growth.



    Long version:
    Lorenz is supposed to be totally unlikable at first (I mean, I totally despised him at first and now he and Marianne are my favorites in the game). Our first contact with Lorenz is exactly what you said: arrogant, smug, entitled, uptight, and slimy. He is supposed to look like someone who relish on his status as a noble, who believes he is above the commonfolk and look down on everyone who also wasn't born into nobility with contempt.
    Part of that is spot on, while part is a misunderstanding that his uptightness invites.

    Lorenz initial support conversations usually shows (at least the ones with the women) he is completely oblivious about himself and how others perceive him. Other characters don't mind pulling punches when it comes to dealing with him and he is mostly surprised when someone shows him how he actually is seen instead of the perfect gallant noble he thinks he is.
    That's a key thing about how he is handled: unlike, say, Felix, who is never confronted by other characters, Lorenz constantly is and that allows him to grow. While some of his support lines let us to understand him better, others will show that he is willing to grow and effectively becomes a better person as the game progresses.

    The truth is Lorenz has a heart of gold. He follows the logic of "with great powers come great responsibilities" to a fault. Literally. He more than once expresses the will to erase his own desires if they conflict with his duties as a noble. He puts his nobility above everything else to the point of self-erasure. But the most important thing to understand him is that to him nobility is not status: nobility means he was given power and prestige that must be used to protect those beneath him.
    He is blindly seeking a proper (usually noble) wife to ensure the stability of House Gloucester, one of the 5 great houses of the Alliance, therefore assuring the Alliance itself will be stable and not shaken by its constant inner conflicts. And that's important to him because he knows when power starts to dwindle, the poor are the first to pay the price.
    He is not constantly seeking girls because he thinks they want his noble D and because he thinks as a noble he has the right to claim what he sees, but because he believes securing a proper alliance through marriage is mandatory to consolidate the future of House Gloucester. However, clearly being too oblivious about how improper his conduct can be, he ignores the fact his constant flirting is actually unwanted and bordering on harassment.
    That's where his support with Byleth comes in: he is told bluntly the girls are complaining about his behavior; he is legitimately shocked by it because he truly can't fathom how his conduct was improper since it is the result of his perfect upbringing (and rather than sexual advances, he sees his flirting and the marriage he seeks at the end of it as closer to signing a business deal). But despite being unable to figure out what is happening, he accepts the complaints and is willing to change his ways (which he effectively does).
    The fact he sees marriage as a treat between parts rather than a personal intimate vow (setting him to fail to properly evaluate his conduct), the fact he sees that as necessary to maintain the stability of the Alliance, the fact he later grow to accept and acknowledge his behavior as invasive, and, most of all, the fact he allows himself to completely question the set of values he was educated on and that led him to equal the benefit one could bring to his family to "one being a noble" (although his support with Dorothea shows that's not all), all of that is put on his support with Byleth:
    B support: For the nobility, marriage is not merely a union of individuals. It is also a union of families. It would not benefit the House Gloucester to be tied to a family of powerless commoners, would it? To achieve supremacy, it is necessary for my line to be tied to that of an influential family. That is the best path and prosperity for all. So, as you can see, the future of the Alliance rests on my shoulders.

    A support: Selfishly pursuing my own desires caused me to behave inconsiderably. For instance, it was arrogant and rude to invite ladies to dine with me purely to evaluate them. Our experiences in battle have also given me cause to doubt certain preconceptions I once held. Previously, I had considered it a requirement for my future spouse to come from a noble line. I once thought that commoners lacked the power to influence the wider world, as history might suggest. To find a commoner who made a real impact, one has to look all the way back to Nemesis. That was my belief, at any rate. But I realized that I have actually had an influential commoner right in front of me all along.
    His idea that a noble must completely erase themselves in face of their duties and even their "romantic" life is not a personal affair but a powerful way to perform those duties is also clear on his support with Lysithea (he is in awe at the thought she doesn't want to have kids because, in his eyes, that would make House Ordelia disappear and that would greatly affect the Alliance and its people - "The people would be in disarray. The balance of power would crumble. Chaos would rule"). That to say the reason Lorenz bad relentless conduct dealing with others is not due to a flaw of character, but to a completely twisted perception of "personal affairs" (as he puts to Dorothea, he is looking for a "partner").

    Obviously all that makes him end up having a classicist view of the world. Even though he doesn't see nobles are necessarily superior to commoners, he does believe each has a different role to perform. His whole support with Leonie is focused on portraying his vision of a world cleaved in two and how it evolves as they develop their friendship. While Lorenz fully believes in the system of nobles and commoners, his supports usually show how much those two worlds get closer in his eyes as he progresses as a person ("I hope this is not the first time I have told you this, Leonie, but you are an exceptional individual. By insisting on matters of status in dealing with you, I have done you a terrible disservice. For that, please accept my apology. Let us promise to look out for one another, as friends, from now on.")



    And then we have Claude.
    Honestly, Lorenz initial response to Claude is pretty much the only Alliance related plotline we have in the game. House Riegan is the leader of the Alliance, their current leader is old, the next in line dies, suddenly a mysterious grandson nobody ever heard about appears. Claude's existence and how much distrust and turmoil it would cause within the Alliance should be a big point on the Golden Deer route, but sadly it is confined to Lorenz and his support lines with Claude and Lysithea.
    Don't be fooled by how likeable Claude is and how unlikeable Lorenz sounds, Lorenz reaction to him makes total sense and is not wrong in the least. To Lorenz' eyes (and, we could assume, the rest of the Alliance houses), Claude's contrived introduction seems like a scheme House Riegan came up with to ensure they would not lose the head of the Alliance to the Gloucester. As said, Lorenz believes the political stability of the Alliance is required to ensure its people (not the noble, the commoners) can live properly. To him, House Riegan in its despair to not let go of power is a menace to the well-being of the population as they are willing to put the future of the Alliance in the hands of this person they just found out instead of thinking of the greater good. To make matters worse, think of how many characters in their support with Claude tell him how untrustworthy he is perceived by others.

    Lorenz believes he is fitting to be the leader of the Alliance because he knows he truly cares about his people and was properly raised to be a good, influential, competent leader. The Alliance is far from perfect and he fears Claude can only make everything worse.
    Look at his support with Lysithea, it shows pretty much all that. It shows he is deeply worried about the Alliance current state, how he believes an alliance between houses to support the House Gloucester can help overcome that, and, additionally, how his mindset is that of always be evaluating life based on how a noble must use every opportunity to continuously improve as a person and develop their skills for the sake of others:
    C support: Don't be silly. I wanted to discuss the future of the Alliance. To have a constructive and candid exchange of opinion. (...) As it stands, the bonds between Alliance lords are quite weak. If this state of affairs persists, I am afraid those bonds may dissolve entirely. House Ordelia may be small, but a small house is fettered by fewer obligations than a larger one. Apply yourselves actively in diplomacy, negotiate wisely, and you could do much to help maintain peace among the neighboring lords. The recognition of those lords would benefit your house immensely. To that end, why not start with me, the heir to House Gloucester?

    B support: Openness is a prerequisite to successful diplomacy. You'll learn that, when you take your first real steps into high society. (...) But there's nothing the matter with being young. There is a role to be played at every stage in life. That is how we learn and grow. (...) I absolutely recognize your raw ability. You possess quite a rare gift for magic. I hope we can find a way for you to use that gift to help as many people as we can

    A support: True sympathy, even for the smallest wildflower. I admire your kindness. When you inherit your house, that kindness will be a balm to your subjects. They, and the neighboring lords, will trust you instinctively. (...) The Alliance has been harmed in the past by lords who thought only of themselves. Who saw others as a means to an end. But you! You understand others' pain. With you around, I am quite hopeful that the Alliance will flourish again.
    He opposes Claude not because he always dreamed of having the Alliance for himself and then Claude appeared ruining his plans. He opposes Claude because he truly believes his presence as successor of House Riegan is a scheme of that house to the detriment of the Alliance. He truly believes Claude will not be a proper leader to an already shaken Alliance and might lead to its complete dissolution, ultimately only bringing doom to its people.
    "I do not think you grasp the significance of the responsibility you bear. Do you even know what it means to lead the Leicester Alliance? I take no pleasure in saying this, but much of the chaos in our ranks right now is due to the failings of House Riegan's leadership. I intend to set things right."
    On their B support we can see that Lorenz is genuinely worried about what he perceives as Claude's lack of knowledge about the Alliance intern affairs. Once Claude proves that not only he was fully aware of every information Lorenz brought to him and even more, Lorenz eases up (he is not infuriated as would be expected from someone who is losing the perspective of power, something Claude actually mentions).

    And then we move to the A support when Claude himself acknowledges that Lorenz would be a great leader to the alliance and offer him the position... only for Lorenz to refuse. Now that he has already acknowledged Claude's capabilities, he actually wants to see him lead - but not without warning him he will step in the moment he falters.
    Claude: Listen, Lorenz. You had ambitions of becoming the Alliance's ruler, didn't you? Would you like to try that for real? If you really want it, I wouldn't mind giving up my position.
    Lorenz: What's this all of a sudden?! That is not an offer to be made in jest!
    Claude: I'm not joking around. I've been thinking it for a while now. I originally thought you were like a fox drawn in by the deer of the Alliance. But I was wrong. You're no thoughtless predator. You're trying to properly train the deer around you. Isn't that right?
    Lorenz: That is my intention, but the ambition is insufficient. To rule well, a certain temperament is required. When we first met, I mistrusted you a great deal. And on my father's advice, I observed you closely. That is why I can say this for certain - you possess the qualities necessary to govern.
    Claude: A compliment? From you? That's about as rare as a deer standing on its hind legs and doing a jig.
    Lorenz: Merely a statement of fact. One that is quite relevant to the future of the Alliance.
    Claude: The future of the Alliance, eh? You really are devoted to your cause.
    Lorenz: Depending on your actions, I may yet see fit to seize your position for myself. Bear that in mind.


    Of course, after all that, the fact Lorenz is a snob and can be a prude doesn't change (see his support with Ferdinand). But that's his charm, that doesn't equate to flaws of character. As Leonie summarizes: "I always thought he was just stuck-up. Turns out, he just has this grand idea of nobility he’s trying to live up to…".
    His entire life is dedicated to pursue his ideal of what a noble person must be and to answer back to society by applying it to the benefit of those in need even at his own expense. For the lack of a better word, he is truly noble. Although, as Dorothea wisely puts, "Lorenz, you are dangerously close to dedicating your life to the lie that nobility is something special... I hope you realize that before it's too late."
    Last edited by .access timeco.; September 13th, 2019 at 09:17 PM.

  18. #9158

    Default Re: General Fire Emblem Thread - Oh No! I'm Late for the Brigand Exam!

    I actually read all that, and I still don't quite understand that take.

    Regardless of where it comes from or what it means to him, that principle he has (that is somewhat similar to Ferdinand's) feels kind of off to me. Like, sure, it's nice of you that you were born into nobility and as a result you want to be THE BEST noble for the sake of the people. However, the execution is flawed by nature.

    Aspiration towards leadership or nobility cannot begin with the assumption that you are perfect and know the perfect way to do things and obviously other people are wrong and must be corrected. Otherwise it's just some ivory tower sensibility no different from "the wealth will trickle down" or "the white man's burden", where someone in a position of power assumes natural superiority and responsibility over others based on birthright. And in a way I think that's what ticks me the most about the nobility characters that take this stance... it's a stance so loaded that even the game acknowledges this with its multiple plots and characters that seek to undermine the system.

    Ultimately, we can accept that he is in the end what is essentially a high school kid and it's not unnatural for kids at that age to be complete shits. And sure, he gets redeemed in A supports, but outside of that he's still the same character, and much like Snape was an asshole even after redeemed, to me Lorenz is still gross even if he suddenly gains the humility to consider a commoner a valuable human being.

  19. #9159

    Default Re: General Fire Emblem Thread - Oh No! I'm Late for the Brigand Exam!

    Ferdinand was the Lorenz that succeed.

  20. #9160
    Amazing World Garaku's Avatar
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    Default Re: General Fire Emblem Thread - Oh No! I'm Late for the Brigand Exam!

    So I did a marathon on all four routes, and Black Eagles aside I just gotta say...
    Spoiler:
    DAMMIT EDELGARD LET ME SAVE YOU. anddimitritoo

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