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Thread: Super Smash Bros

  1. #14161

    Default Re: Super Smash Bros

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    If it's th previous game with a new 1 player mode, new challenges, and some new items and a dozen new character, but the entire returning roster using old assets? Is that an update, a port, or a sequel? (If it was Dynasty Warriors, it'd be a sequel.)
    If you put it that way, it would be an update. A "definitive" version so to speak. The comparison to Pokemon is almost lost on me, since it was only a year apart and on the same hardware. But it's also not a sequel at all and has more traits of an update. It makes me wonder what's more ballsy: An update after 1 year or 4 years?

  2. #14162

    Default Re: Super Smash Bros

    Honestly it doesn't matter if it is a port or not does it? Super Smash for Wii U was an excellent game, and that just looking better with more characters is probably more than enough for many.


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  3. #14163

    Default Re: Super Smash Bros

    Quote Originally Posted by lr-hr-rh View Post
    Errmm, not sure if this is the best place for this sort of thing, but on the off chance people are interested I came across this article looking at how well deep neural networks can play Melee. The title might be pretty hyperbolic (I just leafed through the article, looking for it was enough bad procrastination as it was) but it looks pretty interesting.

    Article
    That was pretty interesting to read. I'm not an expert in the actual math behind neural networks but it's interesting to see how they iterated and the successes/struggles of trying to train AI to compete in a complex game with multiple playable characters.

  4. #14164

    Default Re: Super Smash Bros

    The math behind neural networks is unreadable. The only parameters that you can give it besides the study case (in this case, a match) is how large is the network, how much weight each learning exercice has, and the dataset.

    Granted, my good neural network only learned to identify if a point was inside a perimeter, and it was already very complex.
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  5. #14165
    Discovered Stowaway fana's Avatar
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    Default Re: Super Smash Bros

    I think the modes will be different enough (like Smash Tour being replaced by something else) and characters/stages additions numerous enough to justify the game not being called a port/deluxe version by Nintendo.

    Since I gave up on Isaac joining the roster, my new dream addition is KOS-MOS. Even if it's not really realistic, her chances are still higher than any Golden Sun character.

  6. #14166

    Default Re: Super Smash Bros

    There isn't a whole hell of a lot of difference between the specs of the Switch and the Wii U, right? So there's no reason to junk the old engine and start again from the ground up. Look at Xenoblade 2, Monolith was able to get it out two years after X because they built it upon X's existing architecture. And no one would call 2 a port or update of X lol. If you have that foundation already and are able to reuse assets like character models with a new bucket of paint on them and a number of stages, that's still a ton of development time cut out but can still involve adding and changing more than enough content to consider it a new game.

    But yeah as mentioned before the third party characters would all have to be licensed again. I would imagine Capcom would love for Mega Man to return, as this does more for the character than Capcom does, and I'm sure Ryu is a package deal. Pac-man will be back for the same reasons imo, and Sonic is a shoo-in. I just really really doubt Cloud returns, maybe later as paid DLC again, and with Kojima gone from Konami Snake ain't ever coming back.

  7. #14167
    MALKIOR THE DESTROYER KaizokuJinbei's Avatar
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    Default Re: Super Smash Bros

    PSN: Ryuunaga, Nintendo Switch Friend ID: SW-1971-9767-4001, Steam: Malkior7, 3DS FC: 4167-5777-1464



  8. #14168
    Stranger in a Strange Land lr-hr-rh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Super Smash Bros

    Quote Originally Posted by Foolio View Post
    That was pretty interesting to read. I'm not an expert in the actual math behind neural networks but it's interesting to see how they iterated and the successes/struggles of trying to train AI to compete in a complex game with multiple playable characters.
    Cool, I'm glad to hear it was worth sharing. There was another one I found about researchers training a network to try and avoid getting hit by CPU enemies for some predetermined period of time but I figured this was more interesting :P

    Quote Originally Posted by maxterdexter View Post
    The math behind neural networks is unreadable. The only parameters that you can give it besides the study case (in this case, a match) is how large is the network, how much weight each learning exercice has, and the dataset.

    Granted, my good neural network only learned to identify if a point was inside a perimeter, and it was already very complex.
    Really? I'm not that knowledgeable about the specifics of neural networks, but I figure the learning algorithm (well, algorithm + heuristic) itself would be a pretty important mathematical consideration (and important design parameter)? They use two in the paper for example which both seem to have different principles underlying them (and apparently learn better under different training conditions), and I know there are at least a few more (algorithms that is) that are supposedly an important consideration for network design. Am I understanding that wrong? :/
    Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

  9. #14169

    Default Re: Super Smash Bros

    What I remember about neural networks from 10 years ago:

    Let's suppose you want to grab an input, suppose a character, and figure out if it is a letter, a number or a symbol, where a letter is the 26 letter alphabet, both cases, number is from 0 to 9 and a symbol is anything else.

    That gives us a few clues about our network, we have to feed it a character, and it has to give us if it is one of these three categories.

    Suposing the symple case of just feeding it "a" the character, then it needs just one in neuron, and three out neurons, the network takes the value, aplies some functions to it to pass it to the middle layer of neurons (where the magic happens) and then to the output layer where these neurons give a 0 or 1 answer.
    The first time is going to be garbage, like it says it is all three of them, but as this is a training example you say "no, it is a letter" and then it gives more "ohmp" to the functions that said that, and less to the ones that didn't say that. You automate the training set and make it do it for 10k times and it should start giving the correct answers. But this approach wouldn't work with "" because you are feeding it the exact character, so it wouldn't be able to learn much of anything or give answers beyond its training, maybe it identifies a "g" as it is encoded between f and h and it did train with those.

    A more complex and useful example would be to feed it the character graphically, like breaking it down to parts, each part is given a in neuron, and then it will be able to recognize or as characters, but sometimes will confuse 1 and l or o and 0.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Granted, my ex roommate says that this approach is outdated but then he started talking in white noise and I don't remember the rest of it. But this approach worked, and most math needed is statistics.
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  10. #14170

    Default Re: Super Smash Bros

    Ridley Ridley Ridley! Dixie and K Rool too! It's time to dream again!

    But for the eternally smash crushed don't worry Spring Man is bound to get in, and take comfort in knowing that Ganondorf will still be a Falcon clone.
    Folks who read One Piece... Just better people. \_(ツ)_/

  11. #14171

    Default Re: Super Smash Bros

    I hope they pick twintelle or the Aztec guy, or the villains over Mr and ms generic.
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  12. #14172

    Default Re: Super Smash Bros

    I hope at the very least we will get alternate characters for Spring Man with similar body types like Alph and Olimar. It's the different actual arms though that make the big difference. I have a feeling most of the characters standard attacks will be the standard arms/weapons but specials will be all that weird stuff that originates from other characters.

    At first thought it sounds weird but well Mario has fire balls and the cape at once and Ness is using moves from all kinds of other characters in his game.
    Folks who read One Piece... Just better people. \_(ツ)_/

  13. #14173

    Default Re: Super Smash Bros

    Specials for arms will most likely just be the different arms you can equip. A lot of character specific special moves wouldn't make sense not on their character. Like, you can't have Helix stretching around unless it's Helix, or form changing unless it's Misango. Some I guess I could see being borrowed, like Twintelle's time freeze as a counter or Ribbon Girl's multiple jumps.
    For other specials I would like one of the dragon arms, one of the homing ones (seekie?) and one of the shields (reflector?). Other arms can just be regular attacks or different smash attacks.

    Character-wise I definitely imagine getting Spring Man with coloring based on different characters and a Springtron alt. Personally I'd prefer Min Min, particularly since she's a favorite of Mr. Yabuki. Could also see Twintelle as possible since the devs know she's super popular. Whatever character, the final smash would obviously be Hedlock possessing the player.

    The other question I'd have about an Arms character is just the mechanics of it. Since Arms is very focused on spacing and aiming, it'll be interesting to see how that can be balanced properly.

  14. #14174

    Default Re: Super Smash Bros


  15. #14175

    Default Re: Super Smash Bros

    ^That list is pure garbage. I can't even take the top 20 seriously.

  16. #14176

  17. #14177

    Default Re: Super Smash Bros

    I personally think the roster should be 30 characters max. I can easily cut the Smash 4 roster to 25 or less, leaving room for a handful of new ones.

  18. #14178

    Default Re: Super Smash Bros

    Quote Originally Posted by Foolio View Post
    I personally think the roster should be 30 characters max. I can easily cut the Smash 4 roster to 25 or less, leaving room for a handful of new ones.
    m-monster

    Well that depends. Of the cut people, how many are Sm4sh newcomers, and how many are not?

  19. #14179

    Default Re: Super Smash Bros

    It's that season again where youtube is a cesspool of smash-related clickbait lists and everyone has their own impossible wish list...


    Fuck it, let's go. Character wish list:

    1. Dixie Kong
    2. Min Min
    3. Elma (Xenoblade Chronicles X), because fuck Rex. Also acceptable: Nia, Tora, Morag, Zeke + Pandoria, Vandham... just not Rex
    4. Lyn, because we need more Fire Emblem
    5. Porky Minch, because why the fuck not
    6. these cats
    7. K. Rool
    8. DJ Octavio, because he's not as big as Ridley
    9. bring back Wolf
    10. a new pokemon character, ideally this

  20. #14180

    Default Re: Super Smash Bros

    Obviously all three mii fighters are the top priority for staying in.

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