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Thread: Bart Simpson Thread XI: The Movie - The Manga Adaption - The Animation

  1. #9781

    Default Re: Bart Simpson Thread XI: The Movie - The Manga Adaption - The Animation

    Quote Originally Posted by MetaMario View Post
    he was always one of my favorites when I was actually into the series.

    what STILL pisses me off is that Orochimaru isn't locked up somewhere. Kubo would do the exact same thing with Mayuri in Bleach. You don't just let the immoral creepy scientist walk around, goddamn it.
    You do when you need a character for exposition later on down the road......or an occasional punching bag.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiq View Post
    I've often wondered about that myself; seems like being supported by people who only want you there so the world can end in fire (with you going to Hell in the process) would be somewhat off-putting
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  2. #9782
    The Album Guy Nobodyman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bart Simpson Thread XI: The Movie - The Manga Adaption - The Animation

    Quote Originally Posted by zeltrax225 View Post
    Except Mayuri wasn't a total scum.
    He was in the Soul Society arc when he blew up his own subordinates and tortured Uryu's grandfather to death.

    But then Kubo decided to forget all that and make him a wacky scientist.

  3. #9783

    Default Re: Bart Simpson Thread XI: The Movie - The Manga Adaption - The Animation

    Quote Originally Posted by MetaMario View Post
    Don't even get me started on "Obito was a cool guy"

    this series is not good at redeeming people
    I agree that Naruto wasn't good enough in redeeming people. But sometimes it also leaves bitter taste. I still can't digest Oda redeeming Crocodile and i won't be able to accept him redeeming Caeser Clown in future ( which will happen i believe).
    Last edited by auem; October 30th, 2018 at 04:32 AM.
    “When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always.”


  4. #9784
    Saemon Havarian Razh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bart Simpson Thread XI: The Movie - The Manga Adaption - The Animation

    Quote Originally Posted by auem View Post
    I agree that Naruto wasn't goon enough in redeeming people. But sometimes it also leaves bitter taste. I still can't digest Oda redeeming Crocodile and i won't be able to accept him redeeming Caeser Clown in future ( which will happen i believe).
    Don't see how he redeemed Crocodile. As of now, he's still a bad guy. Luffy and him shared common goal for a while and were in a reluctant temporary alliance. Beggars can't be choosers and Luffy is not some paladin, but a pirate. If you or anyone else started liking the guy along the way, that's not Oda's fault.

    Personally, always liked the character.

    Caesar on the other hand should have no business being turned into a comic relief that you enjoy seeing interact with the crew. Shouldn't have made him into such a sadistic scumbag in the first place.
    Last edited by Razh; October 30th, 2018 at 03:07 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Outerspec View Post
    Trying to understand Bleach is like trying to drink a bottle of bleach.

    It makes no sense and you'll be dead before you're finished.

  5. #9785

    Default Re: Bart Simpson Thread XI: The Movie - The Manga Adaption - The Animation

    Quote Originally Posted by Razh View Post
    Don't see how he redeemed Crocodile. As of now, he's still a bad guy. Luffy and him shared common goal for a while and were in a reluctant temporary alliance. Beggars can't be choosers and Luffy is not some paladin, but a pirate. If you or anyone else started liking the guy along the way, that's not Oda's fault.

    Personally, always liked the character.

    Caesar on the other hand should have no business being turned into a comic relief that you enjoy seeing interact with the crew. Shouldn't have made him into such a sadistic scumbag in the first place.
    After what he did in Alabasta, making him becoming a 'honest' soul, preaching like 'if you want to protect someone, do it properly' and then setting an example by saving Luffy and Jinbe from Akainu was definitely an attempt to show some redeeming qualities in him.
    I am not criticising Oda for how he executed it, after all he mellowed down Croco in the cover story and then their joint jailbreak all placed him right to the point of his final action; but you can't take away his past.
    I brought it up mainly in the context of why a mass murderer like Orochimaru was allowed to live. My point is Oda let that too most of the times.He just does better job in 'rehabilitating' a character in the story than Kishi.
    As for why Orochimaru wasn't imprisoned in Narutoverse, my guess would be like Sasuke he was also being forgiven due to his contribution in 4th ninja war. Naruto kept him under observation though.
    Last edited by auem; October 30th, 2018 at 06:34 AM.
    “When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always.”


  6. #9786

    Default Re: Bart Simpson Thread XI: The Movie - The Manga Adaption - The Animation

    Quote Originally Posted by auem View Post
    As for why Orochimaru wasn't imprisoned in Narutoverse, my guess would be like Sasuke he was also being forgiven due to his contribution in 3rd ninja war. Naruto kept him under observation though.
    *4th
    But his actions didn't exactly help the situation, whatwith causing the 3rd Hokage's death, and tempting Sasuke into leaving (a reoccuring headache for the Leaf Village). Anko and Yamato were also his victims.

    I could go on all day about the Uchihas in general, but I'd say we had our fair share throughout all the threads.





  7. #9787

    Default Re: Bart Simpson Thread XI: The Movie - The Manga Adaption - The Animation

    Leaf Village has something of a shaky tendency to be weirdly forgiving

    Whether it's forgiving the Cloud Village for violating a peace treaty by trying to kidnap Hinata

    Or

    Eventually forgiving Kurama for attacking the village (under mind control) and killing the Fourth Hokage (without mind control).
    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiq View Post
    I've often wondered about that myself; seems like being supported by people who only want you there so the world can end in fire (with you going to Hell in the process) would be somewhat off-putting
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  8. #9788

    Default Re: Bart Simpson Thread XI: The Movie - The Manga Adaption - The Animation

    I think is more of a precaution, keeping tabs on orochimaru is cheaper and safer than holding or killing him and him respawning somewhere else.
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  9. #9789

    Default Re: Bart Simpson Thread XI: The Movie - The Manga Adaption - The Animation

    Quote Originally Posted by MetaMario View Post
    *4th
    But his actions didn't exactly help the situation, whatwith causing the 3rd Hokage's death, and tempting Sasuke into leaving (a reoccuring headache for the Leaf Village). Anko and Yamato were also his victims.

    I could go on all day about the Uchihas in general, but I'd say we had our fair share throughout all the threads.
    Yeah! My mistake.
    Well had he not resurrected those hokages, the way the story unfold, there were no chance of winning it for the alliance.
    I think it had been a norm in shounen manga to forgive major antagonists/villains for a long time, like how Raoh was glorified later in the Fist of North Star, or a killer like Vegeta became a very acceptable character. Bottomline is one shouldn't expect common world logic of crime and punishment in manga.
    Early Orochimaru was a awesome character and it was a pity how his development as a character was abandoned by Kishi. For a ardent Naruto fan like me and many others, it is indeed the Uchhihas or more precisely the way Kishi handled them, that plagued the whole story.
    “When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always.”


  10. #9790

    Default Re: Bart Simpson Thread XI: The Movie - The Manga Adaption - The Animation

    Quote Originally Posted by auem View Post
    Yeah! My mistake.
    Well had he not resurrected those hokages, the way the story unfold, there were no chance of winning it for the alliance.
    I think it had been a norm in shounen manga to forgive major antagonists/villains for a long time, like how Raoh was glorified later in the Fist of North Star, or a killer like Vegeta became a very acceptable character. Bottomline is one shouldn't expect common world logic of crime and punishment in manga.
    Early Orochimaru was a awesome character and it was a pity how his development as a character was abandoned by Kishi. For a ardent Naruto fan like me and many others, it is indeed the Uchhihas or more precisely the way Kishi handled them, that plagued the whole story.
    Edo Tensei, i feel, was a massive mistake narratively. It was eerie and ominous when Orochimaru used the Kages against the Third Hokage, but then you have Kabuto/Obito/whoever digging up literally everyone across the grave. It dragged out the war arc and nearly turned things into a Dragon Ball-esque situation where death kinda had no weight to it, I feel.
    Then you get situations with Gaara's dad where Kishimoto just stomps over what was already established.

    But I suppose in the sense of winning, it worked. Not because Orochimaru was feeling virtouous or remorseful (or hell, even just to spite the Akatsuki side), just to play to Sasuke's whims and cause some rumbling. Villains like him are fun to watch carry out their schemes, not dangle awkwardly between the sides of "totally redeemed" and "well he's not the current bad guy so who cares".

    It's interesting you mention Vegeta, it's certainly true Saiyans like him did many awful things. But it took arcs of getting the piss beaten out of him, breaking down in tears, witnessing his own son die, lose a reason to fight seriously, and then learn his greatest rival upstaged him again to truly redeem himself, topped off when the wish to revive all those that died since the morning of the World Tournament - "except the really bad ones" - included him as well.
    Where's Orochimaru's breakdown apology to the Leaf?

    The jury is out on Crocodile until we see him again, but I can see why the complaint that he's "redeemed" holds some water.

    Now Sasuke.....just.....fuck Sasuke. He and his clan sucked the joy and fairness out of the entire story.





  11. #9791
    Division Commander Daz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bart Simpson Thread XI: The Movie - The Manga Adaption - The Animation

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobodyman View Post
    He was in the Soul Society arc when he blew up his own subordinates and tortured Uryu's grandfather to death.

    But then Kubo decided to forget all that and make him a wacky scientist.
    Mayuri was so cartoonishly evil that he carried photos of his unethical body-horror research around FOR YEARS, just on the off chance he could rub them in the face of a relative of the research subject.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Razh View Post
    Don't see how he redeemed Crocodile. As of now, he's still a bad guy. Luffy and him shared common goal for a while and were in a reluctant temporary alliance. Beggars can't be choosers and Luffy is not some paladin, but a pirate. If you or anyone else started liking the guy along the way, that's not Oda's fault.

    Personally, always liked the character.
    The last time we saw him was on a cover page where sadistic, civil-war engineering, cynical Crocodile was holding an umbrella for a cute little puppy, while he himself chose to stand in the rain, aka his ultimate weakness. He may not've been "redeemed" in the classical shonen-trope sense, but he's absolutely been completely let off the hook, villainy-wise. Barring a few weeks in jail, he essentially got off scot free for everything he did in Alabasta.
    Last edited by Daz; October 30th, 2018 at 08:05 AM.

  12. #9792

    Default Re: Bart Simpson Thread XI: The Movie - The Manga Adaption - The Animation

    That puppy scene is as canonical as Doflamingo loaning his glasses to a random flamingo.
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  13. #9793
    Division Commander Daz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bart Simpson Thread XI: The Movie - The Manga Adaption - The Animation

    Sure. But it signals a certain attitude towards this character, to put them in situations like that. Can you picture Oda using Arlong, Caesar, Hody or St Charloss in that way?

  14. #9794

    Default Re: Bart Simpson Thread XI: The Movie - The Manga Adaption - The Animation

    Also Uryu not getting justice for Soken is one thing I won't forgive Kubo for.





  15. #9795
    Discovered Stowaway MarcelloF's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bart Simpson Thread XI: The Movie - The Manga Adaption - The Animation

    Crocodile also was close to tears when Whitebeard was stabbed.

    Bellamy's surviving and subsequent redemption is possibly my most hated thing to happen in the series lol

    Orochimaru not being locked up or killed is dumb, but I'm not as bothered as with Bellamy or even Crocodile.

    Sasuke I honestly don't have a problem with.

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  16. #9796

    Default Re: Bart Simpson Thread XI: The Movie - The Manga Adaption - The Animation

    Not everyone is a puppy kicking kind of villain. Did you imagine that Lucci after learning the meaning of comaradery, and saving that girl's town would go back into being a hitman for the goverment?

    This is Luffy's morals, if you get your anger out and the villain stops hurting your friends, why keep resentment, specially if they have no reason to go after them again? That is in One Piece.

    Mayuri Getting defeated only meant that he would be more prepared and more devious afterwards, same with Orochimaru. Tolerated for the sake of them not going deeper into depravity. At least you could make an argument of Mayuri being killable, just for it to activate a Nemu-personality overwritting protocol that revives him in her body or some twisted shit, from where he'll go to destroy soul society, and do the experiments that were barred from him before. They are tumors, unkillable unrepentant vestiges of their past crimes, that were given an inch of power and fused themselves into the fabric of society, holding the world hostage as they are way too dangerous to kill.

    Bellamy? Bellamy is a third rate thug that got bounced back from the 2th rate, breaking himself in the process.
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  17. #9797

    Default Re: Bart Simpson Thread XI: The Movie - The Manga Adaption - The Animation

    I always thought Crocodile as a cold realist kind of person.
    He has respect for people who are strong and who is on his level, even a plus if at the same time they can be of use to him.
    For those who are "weak" or average or dumb(mr3), he has no qualms manipulating and destroying.
    He plays around with Vivi and Cobra for that reason, a god complex but not like that of Enel(because I don't see our fake god respecting anyone.)
    If you are strong and have power, he will respect and see your line of thought to a certain degree.
    Even partnering with you when it calls for it because he sees the profit in it, doesn't really matter if you ruined his masterplan that took years, as long as he sees you as a potential partner that won't drag him down.
    In his world, only power exists. And rightfully so in the pirate's world, Vivi's goodwill would never have saved the kingdom.



    Orochimaru, on the other hand, does a 180 character transformation because Kabuto followed his "path" and failed so he saw this failure and the futility of it through him.
    and the death of Jiraiya supposedly(or we were lead to believe) sparked good in him.
    I got that all from fans defending or preaching that he is a "neutral" on google.

    Yeah utter bullshit.
    Look maybe if he was manipulated(Obito) or it was due to circumstances (Zabuza) then it's maybe slightly believable.
    Out of all the villains in Naruto, there's a reason why Madara is revered and one of the better bad guy if not the best.
    Because in the end the dude didn't enter the religion of Narujesus and stuck to his middle finger to fake peace.

    Sasuke influenced no one during his entire career as an emo avenger and supposedly we are made to believe Naruto has this huge influence on everyone.
    So basically Naruto(and part Itachi) influenced Sasuke when he seeks to redeem himself with the massacre plan so when Orochimaru saw that "he did the right thing" and because he was his student(that he manipulated, amongst others who are all dead), his worldview of decades changed because of Sasuke.
    Oh and Also because seeing his crazy fan-boy/follower(Kabuto) end up almost mentally crippled and devasted apparently helped him realize that his whole dream/goal was stupid.
    No amount of plot or character development will ever write psychopath out of Orochimaru.
    He toyed and experiment on a bunch of kids, killed the 3rd Hokage and let's no mention the countless people he killed.
    He was the epitome of Evil during the first half of Naruto and even after that every single deed he did was for himself and his raging boner for immortality.
    You think he ever really cared about furthering the ninja world research or being a devoted scientist? Yeah no.
    ALL villains in Naruto share a general trend of having something to emphasize with.
    Orochimaru has zero.
    The only redeeming factor about Orochimaru is that he didn't get talk-no jutsued.

    About Mayuri: at least he's consistent.
    Last edited by zeltrax225; October 30th, 2018 at 09:05 AM.

  18. #9798

    Default Re: Bart Simpson Thread XI: The Movie - The Manga Adaption - The Animation

    Quote Originally Posted by MetaMario View Post
    ......................
    Where's Orochimaru's breakdown apology to the Leaf?

    The jury is out on Crocodile until we see him again, but I can see why the complaint that he's "redeemed" holds some water.

    Now Sasuke.....just.....fuck Sasuke. He and his clan sucked the joy and fairness out of the entire story.
    But the point is he was not rehabilitated in Konoha, he still is some sorts of rogue ninja under continuous observation. His character was never meant to be apologetic to that extent. Kishi at least kept that till the end.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by zeltrax225 View Post
    .......................................
    Orochimaru, on the other hand, does a 180 character transformation because Kabuto followed his "path" and failed so he saw this failure and the futility of it through him.
    and the death of Jiraiya supposedly(or we were lead to believe) sparked good in him.
    I got that all from fans defending or preaching that he is a "neutral" on google.

    ..................................

    About Mayuri: at least he's consistent.
    I don't remember him hinting along that line. Yes, he said that all he ever wanted is to be a catalyst for change, though never specifically admitting that he brought the worse (lol).
    “When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always.”


  19. #9799

    Default Re: Bart Simpson Thread XI: The Movie - The Manga Adaption - The Animation

    Quote Originally Posted by auem View Post
    But the point is he was not rehabilitated in Konoha, he still is some sorts of rogue ninja under continuous observation. His character was never meant to be apologetic to that extent. Kishi at least kept that till the end.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---


    I don't remember him hinting along that line. Yes, he said that all he ever wanted is to be a catalyst for change, though never specifically admitting that he brought the worse (lol).
    Huh.
    You lost me.
    My point was that jiraiya's death affect him somehow(alittle,maybe or significantly idk), giving him a push to being less evil?
    Yes he said that, it was one of the panels with Tsunade.

  20. #9800
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    Default Re: Bart Simpson Thread XI: The Movie - The Manga Adaption - The Animation

    If Jiriya death did affect Ori, it was shown to be done in a especially non memorable/terrible fashion.

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