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Thread: Bart Simpson Thread XI: The Movie - The Manga Adaption - The Animation

  1. #4981

    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outerspec View Post
    A small farewell to a legend and one of the greatest ninja in the manga's history.

    If Kishi was trying to redeem Madara he did it in the least subtle and most ambiguous way possible.
    Subtle...maybe, ambiguous not at all. It's not hard to connect the dots with Love Cancer, Uchiha/Idiot parallel, and Kishi's relentless objective to screw up the story for the sake of redeeming the Uchihas to decipher what Kishi is trying to do with that scene.

  2. #4982
    The Nice Guy Outerspec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    Quote Originally Posted by valiantt View Post
    Subtle...maybe, ambiguous not at all. It's not hard to connect the dots with Love Cancer, Uchiha/Idiot parallel, and Kishi's relentless objective to screw up the story for the sake of redeeming the Uchihas to decipher what Kishi is trying to do with that scene.
    We're going to have to agree to disagree on this. In no way do I see Hashirama saying goodbye to Madara, who he always thought of as a friend, as some kind of redemption or even an attempt at a redemption. Just because there are parallels between the Uchiha amd Senju doesn't mean they've all been redeemed.

    Indra was never redeemed and neither do I think was Madara.
    Everything's Eventual...


  3. #4983
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    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    Quote Originally Posted by valiantt View Post
    Subtle...maybe, ambiguous not at all. It's not hard to connect the dots with Love Cancer, Uchiha/Idiot parallel, and Kishi's relentless objective to screw up the story for the sake of redeeming the Uchihas to decipher what Kishi is trying to do with that scene.
    You have some weird fixation to see a redemption where is none. It's like you are trying to ignore Kishimoto's writing habits. Madara's and Obito's arcs run parallel to each other (like everything in Naruto because that's how you make emphasis according to Kishimoto), and it's easy to compare them: if Kishimoto was planning to redeem Madara, he would have shoved quality illogical justification of his actions down the audience's collective throat hard enough to make them cry. Literally two panels of Hashirama paying respects to his friend and rival is not how Naruto's author would stage a redemption if we go by the numerous examples we have seen before. Kishimoto never included conciseness and subtlety in his usual modus operandi, and to start searching for them this late into the story is kind of futile.

  4. #4984
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    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    The later books lost all the whimsy, fun, and good characterization that made the earlier books enjoyable, and in their place we got lots of wangst... and material where clearly the editors were now afraid to tell the author to trim it down for better pacing because she was too big. The series getting darker as the characters got older was fine, but the *ammount* of it versus whimsy was in really bad proportion later.
    I'll say that this is a point where I think I can safely say we just have different opinions.

    That described part 1 quite well.

    Now please say what was good about part 2.
    Haha I WAS talking about part 2

  5. #4985

    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: One week more



    #NaruGate

  6. #4986
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    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: One week more

    Maaaaan, the manga ending next week is so surrreeeaaaallll. I feel like I'm in, like, eternal tsukiyomi or something duuude.

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  7. #4987

    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: One week more

    Quote Originally Posted by Mickamott View Post
    Maaaaan, the manga ending next week is so surrreeeaaaallll. I feel like I'm in, like, eternal tsukiyomi or something duuude.
    Did you like the story overall? Do you think this is a fitting ending?
    Here’s how Naruto should end: Last panel is Naruto standing proudly over Konohagakure. Slowly zoom out to reveal Luffy staring into a snowglobe with a miniature Konoha inside it. Usopp asks him what he’s doing. Luffy replies “Thinkin’ bout ninjas! Ninjas are cool!” and then chucks it off the ship

  8. #4988

    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: One week more

    It would be a good ending if any member of the side cast had gotten proper closure to their arcs prior to this, or at least something pretending to be a defining moment, prior to the Naruto/Sasuke one on one... which itself is an excessive excercise in rehash.

    Neji had his at the end of part 1, perhaps Choji as well, and I guess you can write off Gaara after he had the badger pulled out of him, but all the others were denied any purpose or role or even character development. Hinata had her love confession and sacrifice against Pain I guess, but given Naruto hasn't even MENTIONED IT in 263 chapters, (thats SIX YEARS) it doesn't really amount to much.

    Where is Shino's growth? Ino's? Ten Ten? Temari? Kankuo? Hinata? Shikimaru? Kiba? A final fight for each of them to show the techniques and experience they've gained over the years? Giving their all, pushed to their limits to save the day against an enemy only they could deal with? Or even a character moment to reflect on? Each of these characters was shown, developed, given flashbacks and history, promoted as future equals and comrades in arms that would grow and aid in the years along the way, each to have unique fights and interesting battles. Ten Ten never even had a single on-camera battle in the entirety of the series!

    (And no, Naruto giving them all a rasengan to throw from his overwhelming pool of demon energy, including Lee who can't handle such things, does not count.)

    What of Tsunade and Iruka and Killer Bee and Orochimaru and Kabuto? What about the next generation that is supposed to surpass them?

    Even the long promised "opening of eight gates to go beyond hokage level at the cost of death" was denied Lee, and was wussed out on with Guy. (Not to mention its use was ultimately pointless anyway.)

    Even Sakura and Kakashi aren't getting to do anything relevant, and they're theoretically two of the four main characters..

    Yes, there are still two more chapters for *something* to happen, but given everyone is going to have to wake up from their matrix pods and we've basically already bene promised the last chapter is a timeskip... thats really not enough space to do anything remotely satisfactory, not when the last 200 chapters were wasted not doing any of that.

    Worst of all is this final battle.

    The Naruto Sasuke fight is just the extension of the exact same fight they had FIVE HUNDRED AND FIFTY CHAPTERS AGO, and neither of the two has changed an ounce in personality or motivation since then! they got some more techniques, but you could literally cut and paste the last three pages of this battle onto their fight from part one, and aside from a line or two of dialogue, you wouldn't have missed a beat. They didn't grow, change, find reason to see things differently or have any better motivation than before or reflect on any of the things they've learned (like Jiraiya's prophecy, Itachi's sacrifice or the entirety of the war) ... it was just the exact same fight for the exact same reasons as it was when they were twelve. No more, and no less... and they even just used their old techniques!

    When you can literally cut out ten years of the story and not one iota of this has changed since the fifth year of the story (and this goes for other series like Inu Yasha as well) then that's a problem.

    And that is horrendously unsatisfactory.
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  9. #4989
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    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: One week more

    Meheh, I thought about editing that panel to make Naruto and Sasuke hold their arms and change source of bleedout to both of their asses... But I'm not into gay stuff so I'm not going to bother doing that.

  10. #4990
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    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: One week more

    So does this end at 699 or 700?

  11. #4991

    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: One week more

    It ends at 700.
    I honestly can't disagree with what Robby said. The only thing i can say is that those characters at least got some subtle spotlight.
    Here’s how Naruto should end: Last panel is Naruto standing proudly over Konohagakure. Slowly zoom out to reveal Luffy staring into a snowglobe with a miniature Konoha inside it. Usopp asks him what he’s doing. Luffy replies “Thinkin’ bout ninjas! Ninjas are cool!” and then chucks it off the ship

  12. #4992
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    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: One week more

    Quote Originally Posted by valiantt View Post
    One wouldn't make as many gay jokes about the serie if Kishi didn't make it so god damn easy (I wonder if Kishi is actually oblivious to all this or is deliberately being self aware in his work). It's like prohibiting one to use the words "boobs" and "Fairy Tail" in the same sentence.


    PS: Apparently Nex wasn't around when that Rock Lee spinoff was going on.
    I was, but the Rock Lee spinoff isn'tthe issue at hand, so I didn't bring it up. I've checked in on this thread every week since I started here, I've just had very few things to say, because my feelings are generally pretty "meh." I loved the Zabuza arc, but that's pretty much it with me and Naruto. I found the Chunin stuff to be alright, but it dropped in quality for me there. Everything else has been meh. It's been an enjoyable meh, but...


    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post

    Thats because Kishi did the exact same thing for three years. Not even any rainbows of hope or 6,000,000,000 exploding tags or armadillo penises or "half our army is dead in the first day, lol" to mix it up or. Just never-ending badly choreographed war with only one character being of any importance. We'd make new jokes and observations... but there wasn't ever anything new the last several years.

    Aside from the EXCELLENT Rock Lee spinoff, which we rave about and love at length, because it continues to deliver everything that we originally liked about it in the first place! Which just proves the point that we still like the world, the character, the story... it was just the execution and direction and art and overall package it turned into that we hated. But we raved at lenght about Rock Lee manga, singing its praises constantly, calling it "the Real Naruto". The spinoff is still golden! We all loved it! We were *super* positive and excited about that whenever it came out!
    I understand that, but when a series that I liked a lot (Bleach) reaches a point like that, I say my piece and then am done with it. If someone has a good response to my post, I'll continue the discussion, but I'm not going to go back each and every week to shit on something that hasn't done anything new deserving of shit. (The Kaguya thing deserved it, just want that on record.)

    Go back through the archives a couple years. Its no constant bitter bashing hatred, there were long periods of discussion, and hope, and often happy memories of the good days.
    I have, which is why I specified it to this thread. The older Naruto threads tended to be a lot more fun to read through, with solid discussion. Yes, there was repetitious complaints, and things got a little circle-jerky from time to time. I look back at the whimsy of 7 and 8. Both of those threads hit twice as many pages as this thread in a matter of months, and this one has been around for three-and-a-half years. That's not a good indicator of fun and whimsy to me. I'm looking forward to, and hoping that, this one goes out with a banging musical number when it time comes, so there's that, I guess.


  13. #4993

    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: One week more

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    It would be a good ending if any member of the side cast had gotten proper closure to their arcs prior to this, or at least something pretending to be a defining moment, prior to the Naruto/Sasuke one on one... which itself is an excessive excercise in rehash.

    [. . .]

    And that is horrendously unsatisfactory.
    Yeah, I mostly wrote the exact same things a couple pages ago (or was it in the merge thread?), sans the Naruto-Sasuke final battle, which is spot on, of course.

    Worth mentioning, as you very well know, some of these things did happen. . .on the Rock Lee spin-off. The parody gag-manga actually tackled some of the issues that the main manga should've tackled, and did it pretty damned well: see Hinata and Hanabi, Ten-Ten having a real motivation and a role model to follow, Rock-Lee facing Neji and being aknowledged, something that, as weird as it sounds, never happened in the main Naruto manga, etc. . .

    BTW, Kishi DID give fights to these incredibly remarkable characters: Bandaged Samurai Shogun, Disappointing Salamander Ninja, Danzo Bodyguards A and B, Shota Sword Kid, the super charismatic brothers Gintoki and Kintoki (or whoever those fuckers were) among other late additions to the manga instead of, you know, the Konoha 11 or the Sand Siblings. And of course we got AGAIN the 4 Dead Hokage Army, further cementing the point that the new generation can take care of their own and solve their own problems instead of relying on super powered zombies to clean the world's mess. Did I just hear thematic murder? Naaaaah. . . .

  14. #4994
    The Nice Guy Outerspec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: One week more

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    It would be a good ending if any member of the side cast had gotten proper closure to their arcs prior to this, or at least something pretending to be a defining moment, prior to the Naruto/Sasuke one on one... which itself is an excessive excercise in rehash.

    Neji had his at the end of part 1, perhaps Choji as well, and I guess you can write off Gaara after he had the badger pulled out of him, but all the others were denied any purpose or role or even character development. Hinata had her love confession and sacrifice against Pain I guess, but given Naruto hasn't even MENTIONED IT in 263 chapters, (thats SIX YEARS) it doesn't really amount to much.

    Where is Shino's growth? Ino's? Ten Ten? Temari? Kankuo? Hinata? Shikimaru? Kiba? A final fight for each of them to show the techniques and experience they've gained over the years? Giving their all, pushed to their limits to save the day against an enemy only they could deal with? Or even a character moment to reflect on? Each of these characters was shown, developed, given flashbacks and history, promoted as future equals and comrades in arms that would grow and aid in the years along the way, each to have unique fights and interesting battles. Ten Ten never even had a single on-camera battle in the entirety of the series!

    (And no, Naruto giving them all a rasengan to throw from his overwhelming pool of demon energy, including Lee who can't handle such things, does not count.)

    What of Tsunade and Iruka and Killer Bee and Orochimaru and Kabuto? What about the next generation that is supposed to surpass them?

    Even the long promised "opening of eight gates to go beyond hokage level at the cost of death" was denied Lee, and was wussed out on with Guy. (Not to mention its use was ultimately pointless anyway.)

    Even Sakura and Kakashi aren't getting to do anything relevant, and they're theoretically two of the four main characters..

    Yes, there are still two more chapters for *something* to happen, but given everyone is going to have to wake up from their matrix pods and we've basically already bene promised the last chapter is a timeskip... thats really not enough space to do anything remotely satisfactory, not when the last 200 chapters were wasted not doing any of that.

    Worst of all is this final battle.

    The Naruto Sasuke fight is just the extension of the exact same fight they had FIVE HUNDRED AND FIFTY CHAPTERS AGO, and neither of the two has changed an ounce in personality or motivation since then! they got some more techniques, but you could literally cut and paste the last three pages of this battle onto their fight from part one, and aside from a line or two of dialogue, you wouldn't have missed a beat. They didn't grow, change, find reason to see things differently or have any better motivation than before or reflect on any of the things they've learned (like Jiraiya's prophecy, Itachi's sacrifice or the entirety of the war) ... it was just the exact same fight for the exact same reasons as it was when they were twelve. No more, and no less... and they even just used their old techniques!

    When you can literally cut out ten years of the story and not one iota of this has changed since the fifth year of the story (and this goes for other series like Inu Yasha as well) then that's a problem.

    And that is horrendously unsatisfactory.
    Shikamaru was one of the few side characters that had any kind of growth in comparison to Naruto and Sasuke. He basically had a mini-arc which set him up to personally dealing with Hidan for killing his teacher, Asuma. Chouji's and Ino's growth from Asuma's death was mostly shoved off to the side until the war arc where they all dealt with his reanimated corpse. Mostly it was a Shikamaru thing though. I made a list of all significant moments the side characters went through in Part 2, that I remember.

    Ino - Took over for her father during the war too telepathically communicate plans and strategy to the entire Shinobi Alliance.

    Chouji - Had a "tearful moment" with having to lose his sensei a second time.

    Hinata - Sacrificed herself for Naruto and was promptly forgotten about.

    Shino - ???

    Kiba - ???

    Rock Lee - ????????

    Neji - Died in the most anti-climatic way and no one seems to remeber that Neji is dead because of it.

    TenTen - Hahahahahaha

    So yeah, Kishi did not do their characters justice. Not at all, and notice any defining moment I posted up on that list all happened in the very last arc of the series (save for Hinata's but no one remembers that). Something is very wrong when Ino gets more development than Rock Lee.

    I do not agree with your assessment on Sasuke not changing though. Yes, Naruto is the exact same. He never gives up, never goes back on his word, and he wants to be Hokage. Sasuke on the other hand has definitely changed. He went from one simple goal in life, to kill his brother and avenge the Uchiha, to wanting to become Hokage and take on the world's hatred. If you told me 6 years ago that Sasuke wanted to be Hokage and his big brother was his main influence I wouldn't have believed you because that's how drastically different he is from his past self. Yeah, he's still moody and full of himself but he has changed in some significant way.

    Naruto being the Destined Child might warrant some people to say Naruto has changed, but no. He's still the very same person with the very same idealistic goal of becoming Hokage and shaping the world around him.
    Everything's Eventual...


  15. #4995

    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: One week more

    Quote Originally Posted by Outerspec View Post
    Shikamaru was one of the few side characters that had any kind of growth in comparison to Naruto and Sasuke. He basically had a mini-arc which set him up to personally dealing with Hidan for killing his teacher, Asuma. Chouji's and Ino's growth from Asuma's death was mostly shoved off to the side until the war arc where they all dealt with his reanimated corpse. Mostly it was a Shikamaru thing though. I made a list of all significant moments the side characters went through in Part 2, that I remember.

    Ino - Took over for her father during the war too telepathically communicate plans and strategy to the entire Shinobi Alliance.

    Chouji - Had a "tearful moment" with having to lose his sensei a second time.

    Hinata - Sacrificed herself for Naruto and was promptly forgotten about.

    Shino - ???

    Kiba - ???

    Rock Lee - ????????

    Neji - Died in the most anti-climatic way and no one seems to remeber that Neji is dead because of it.

    TenTen - Hahahahahaha

    So yeah, Kishi did not do their characters justice. Not at all, and notice any defining moment I posted up on that list all happened in the very last arc of the series (save for Hinata's but no one remembers that). Something is very wrong when Ino gets more development than Rock Lee.

    I do not agree with your assessment on Sasuke not changing though. Yes, Naruto is the exact same. He never gives up, never goes back on his word, and he wants to be Hokage. Sasuke on the other hand has definitely changed. He went from one simple goal in life, to kill his brother and avenge the Uchiha, to wanting to become Hokage and take on the world's hatred. If you told me 6 years ago that Sasuke wanted to be Hokage and his big brother was his main influence I wouldn't have believed you because that's how drastically different he is from his past self. Yeah, he's still moody and full of himself but he has changed in some significant way.

    Naruto being the Destined Child might warrant some people to say Naruto has changed, but no. He's still the very same person with the very same idealistic goal of becoming Hokage and shaping the world around him.
    I'll add that Shino and Kiba both showed off new jutsu during the war. Rock has shown that he can overcome loss of a close friend. TenTen was able to use the So6P jewel fan. Hinata has shown that she's willing to sacrifice herself for naruto's sake, ultimately being acknowledged by him. Neji's death was underwhelming, he was very humble.
    Here’s how Naruto should end: Last panel is Naruto standing proudly over Konohagakure. Slowly zoom out to reveal Luffy staring into a snowglobe with a miniature Konoha inside it. Usopp asks him what he’s doing. Luffy replies “Thinkin’ bout ninjas! Ninjas are cool!” and then chucks it off the ship

  16. #4996

    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: One week more

    Welp, my comparison after all these years finally holds ground: This is fucking KINGDOM HEARTS.
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  17. #4997
    The Nice Guy Outerspec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: One week more

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmamentHero View Post
    I'll add that Shino and Kiba both showed off new jutsu during the war. Rock has shown that he can overcome loss of a close friend. TenTen was able to use the So6P jewel fan. Hinata has shown that she's willing to sacrifice herself for naruto's sake, ultimately being acknowledged by him. Neji's death was underwhelming, he was very humble.
    I don't really count using new jutsu as a defining or growing moment for a character. Not this late in the manga when new jutsus are literally seen every chapter.
    Everything's Eventual...


  18. #4998
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    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: One week more

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmamentHero View Post
    Did you like the story overall? Do you think this is a fitting ending?
    Fitting? Hmm, interesting question. I'd say this ending (as in the past five or so chapters) is indeed fitting for what the series has become. It's not great, but at least he's delivering on the bare necessities of what needs to be told to not piss off the fandom. By that I mean showing Naruto and Sasuke's final fight and resolution.

    Regarding all other subplots going on, my issues with his handling of them go back to my personal issues with the war in general. That is that the war itself wasn't a bad idea in general, just that Kishimoto often (and throughout the story) makes poor decision as to *what* to show the readers and how much emphasis he places on them. Because of this the majority of the war felt like "filler" as either;

    1) Its introduction directly contradicted the previous continuity
    2) Its introduction rehashed old ground
    3) and/or worst, it was introduced only to never be resolved, thus being ignored.

    For your first question, honestly now that all is said and done I can say that I certainly do like the story overall. Part of it could be nostalgia, or the fact that I only actively followed Naruto for one year, having caught up last October. This is unlike a lot of you who may have been following for the entirety of the war, and this may or may not affect the disparity in some of our views. Also, most of these problems I now understand about Naruto simply did not come to mind as I marathoned it last year as I was too busy trying to catch up rather than analyze the show. Now this doesn't forgive Naruto's poor storytelling but it does make it much more enjoyable for the one who's watching/reading.

    Along the same lines, I caught up with One Piece in the middle of Punk Hazard and as such was able to experience Fishman Island in one go. I absolutely love FI, and in no way did I think it's pacing/flashback was an issue. There was also much less build up for Hody so there was negligible disappointment, considering I had only been invested in this particular villain for a couple days. Now, this is somewhat of a strained analogy considering inherent difference in storytelling quality between Naruto and One Piece despite their"slow paced" arcs, but my point is this.

    Naruto is a highly enjoyable experience despite its (many) flaws. Though my opinion of it is somewhat negative as of late, I see myself forgiving it for a lot of its flaws when I inevitably reread the whole thing in one go, in the same way I forgive Dragon Ball and Digimon (not saying the stories are wholly comparable, just the flaws) of theirs. I'm not saying it's Berserk or One Piece quality (it *isn't*), just that there enough redeemable qualities to warrant me not regretting my time spent with it enough to, in the end, say that I like the story of Naruto.

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  19. #4999

    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: One week more

    Quote Originally Posted by Outerspec View Post
    I don't really count using new jutsu as a defining or growing moment for a character. Not this late in the manga when new jutsus are literally seen every chapter.
    At least they got to showcase a little something, right? I'm not disagreeing to the fact that the konoha 11 wasn't showcased as much, but at least we got to see some.
    Here’s how Naruto should end: Last panel is Naruto standing proudly over Konohagakure. Slowly zoom out to reveal Luffy staring into a snowglobe with a miniature Konoha inside it. Usopp asks him what he’s doing. Luffy replies “Thinkin’ bout ninjas! Ninjas are cool!” and then chucks it off the ship

  20. #5000
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    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: One week more

    You know, I hate to admit it, but while I was reading this chapter, I actually felt....kind of moved. It honestly felt like Kishi was touching on some real human emotions here and for a moment I believed that, despite everything that's happened, there really was some kind of deep connection between these two characters.

    But then I remembered that their "friendship" was horribly contrived and Sasuke turned into a lunatic who tried to murder people.

    Also, if their hands were severed and they slept till morning, then how come neither of them have bled to death yet? And what the hell have Kakashi and Sakura been doing?

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