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Thread: Bart Simpson Thread XI: The Movie - The Manga Adaption - The Animation

  1. #4961

    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Hermit View Post
    No, plot holes and story have actual qualities that can be assessed. Unlike some basic level english class, there *are* things that are fundamentally build a good story, and there are things that make things inconsistent and difficult. You can have an opinion on how you enjoy themes, certain aspects such as if you enjoy gore or a way things are presented, but you can still argue whether something is executed well or how elements are utilized effectively in the story or how consistent something is, these are all things that can be assessed. Now, we may never come to a meeting place for it, but discussion other than "well I felt​ it was good" is something that *can* be done.

    But popularity is not one of those metrics. To take it to the extreme, I highly doubt that people will say Twilight is superb writing, but the invisible hand of the market has already spoken.
    Anyone can analyze any story, but ultimately they're going to say different things regarding the subject. That's the same with any plot, I've seen and heard all kinds of analytical reviews on a story, but ultimately all sides had something different to say.
    Here’s how Naruto should end: Last panel is Naruto standing proudly over Konohagakure. Slowly zoom out to reveal Luffy staring into a snowglobe with a miniature Konoha inside it. Usopp asks him what he’s doing. Luffy replies “Thinkin’ bout ninjas! Ninjas are cool!” and then chucks it off the ship

  2. #4962
    The Nice Guy Outerspec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    Quote Originally Posted by valiantt View Post
    Yet Madara didn't see it that way (hence his baffled response with the comrade line). The fact that Hashirama utilized that line is a grating parallel to the Kakashi+Naruto/Obito and eventually Naruto/Sasuke thing; thus bringing the embarrassing circle of redeeming the Uchihas in general to a close with the story's two main characters. The line was utilized to indicate that Madara should be redeemed regardless as he is still considered to be Hashirama's friend (much like how Sasuke will get his with Naruto going on and on about him being a "friend" the entire time in spite of Sasuke thinking otherwise). So what I believe Kishi is trying to do here is suggesting that it's not Madara's action that redeems Madara but the fact that Hashirama still sees him as a friend in the end which makes Madara's character "redeemable".

    Also, it seems to be a fairly obvious move to make ALL the Uchihas "redeemed" in a way and Madara is no exception to this.

    But it's all horseshit.
    The main difference is that the other Uchiha's actually did something to try and be redeemed and showed some good quality to them. Madara on the other hand only died failing to put the whole world under his illusion. I don't see him being Hashirama's friend as...an attempt to redeem him.
    Everything's Eventual...


  3. #4963
    Saemon Havarian Razh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    I don't think anything could have redeemed Hidan.

    It's a pity there weren't more assholes like him in Naruto.
    Quote Originally Posted by Outerspec View Post
    Trying to understand Bleach is like trying to drink a bottle of bleach.

    It makes no sense and you'll be dead before you're finished.

  4. #4964

    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    The flashback art was good this chapter.
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  5. #4965

    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outerspec View Post
    The main difference is that the other Uchiha's actually did something to try and be redeemed and showed some good quality to them. Madara on the other hand only died failing to put the whole world under his illusion. I don't see him being Hashirama's friend as...an attempt to redeem him.
    That's my point. Madara doesn't have to do anything in the story to be redeemed in the eyes of the reader. All Kishi has to do is "LOOK! It's just like Obito/Kakashi, and inevitably Sasuke/Naruto. Clearly he's not a bad guy right? Now he's redeemed in all your eyes. Huzzah for him". That's what makes it stupid. He didn't do anything to deserve that comparison and the "friend" moment. It's just Kishi trying to impress the idea upon his readers.

    If he didn't want to convey this idea, he could have easily shoved him off screen and cross his fingers that everyone forgot what happened to his corpse.

  6. #4966

    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmamentHero View Post
    Anyone can analyze any story, but ultimately they're going to say different regarding subject. That's the same with any plot, I've seen and heard all kinds of analytical reviews on a story, but ultimately all sides had something different to say.
    Which comes down to how you feel. And it's acceptable to *like* Naruto as long as you acknowledge its incredibly flawed premise and plethora of incredibly questionable choices. We will vehemently disagree with it, but it's *okay* to like it as long as you understand that there *is* a lot that just ain't right from a writing perspective. I'd imagine that's how a lot of readers of Toriko feel at times whenever complaints are thrown around that the pacing is outta wack, but we stick around because Shima continues to deliver on some crazy stuff. Or with JoJo, I don't really think people are in it for an incredibly consistent story, and if you pop by that thread you'll notice that, in spite of all the fun stuff and great ideas thrown around, there *are* things that aren't that satisfactory, or things that aren't as great as later parts. I think Part 3 gets a lot of heat with Araki kinda figuring out how to use stands in Part 3, but it's definitely not one of the better executed parts

    But things that are critiqued, assessed, and analyzed based on actual things that show up in the story and its execution, and this differs from saying "well I enjoyed it at least." Now, not everyone will agree on what criteria is "good" or "bad", for example Nobodyman really not digging the chimera ant arc of Hunter x Hunter or people really not liking the huge amount of narration has been taken incredibly different by people, but discussing *why* these things are negative or positive tells us a lot about what a really good work is
    Last edited by Purple Hermit; October 29th, 2014 at 12:23 PM.

  7. #4967

    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    I hope we at least get one more Naruto and Iruka scene because it seems like Naruto's forgot about him currently.

  8. #4968

    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Hermit View Post
    Which comes down to how you feel. And it's acceptable to *like* Naruto as long as you acknowledge its incredibly flawed premise and plethora of incredibly questionable choices. We will vehemently disagree with it, but it's *okay* to like it as long as you understand that there *is* a lot that just ain't right from a writing perspective. I'd imagine that's how a lot of readers of Toriko feel at times whenever complaints are thrown around that the pacing is outta wack, but we stick around because Shima continues to deliver on some crazy stuff. Or with JoJo, I don't really think people are in it for an incredibly consistent story, and if you pop by that thread you'll notice that, in spite of all the fun stuff and great ideas thrown around, there *are* things that aren't that satisfactory, or things that aren't as great as later parts. I think Part 3 gets a lot of heat with Araki kinda figuring out how to use stands in Part 3, but it's definitely not one of the better executed parts

    But things that are critiqued, assessed, and analyzed based on actual things that show up in the story and its execution, and this differs from saying "well I enjoyed it at least." Now, not everyone will agree on what criteria is "good" or "bad", for example Nobodyman really not digging the chimera ant arc of Hunter x Hunter or people really not liking the huge amount of narration has been taken incredibly different by people, but discussing *why* these things are negative or positive tells us a lot about what a really good work is
    You sir, i agree with this. Every single story has plot holes and inconsistencies, and yes we should discuss why a story is good or bad. This is precisely what I think, when I think of Naruto and some other series.
    Here’s how Naruto should end: Last panel is Naruto standing proudly over Konohagakure. Slowly zoom out to reveal Luffy staring into a snowglobe with a miniature Konoha inside it. Usopp asks him what he’s doing. Luffy replies “Thinkin’ bout ninjas! Ninjas are cool!” and then chucks it off the ship

  9. #4969
    Confused Nex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    Meh. I've enjoyed this series well enough. Yes it suffered a rather big drop in quality between the start of the series and now, and there are a lot of things in it that make me feel like ramming my head against the wall, but I don't know. I enjoyed the ride. It never made it to the realm of Bleach. It was a fun series with some fantastic characters (Who may or may not have been later made not-fantastic) and some great artwork every now and then.

    And I don't know if anyone will agree with me, but this page was fantastic:
    http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/698/6

    Now all that said, I have one thing to get off my chest:
    Quote Originally Posted by Magi View Post
    Addressing its numerous faults isn't vile or hating.
    Do you really want to call what goes on in this thread "addressing" its faults. That is too soft of a word. This thread has become one of the circle-jerkiest of circle-jerks that I have ever seen. Some of the old Naruto threads got bad, but nowhere near this level. Yes, I understand the Kaguya thing deserves a lot of hate, but to label all of this "addressing" is an understatement. Yes, there is legitimate criticism seen here. But it hasn't changed in three years. People just keep complainging about the same things they have been for years. Then of course there's the constant Naruto and Sasuke are gay jokes, which this chapter walked right into. It's just, this material was exhausted in 2011. How are you all not bored saying the same things over and over? If it was just addressing, you would be. But there is enjoyment in it for everyone, because that's how a circle-jerk works. You're getting validation for yourself while shitting on others. Which is what lead to Halfmetal-lich feeling the need to make that post.
    Last edited by Nex; October 29th, 2014 at 03:20 PM.


  10. #4970

    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    What people coming into this thread now, or within the last six months, or who just skim it ocassionally without actually regularly reading it...

    What they can't appreciate about the reaction we have, is that we didn't just jump in and bash the series for fun one day, it was a long, slow decline. We didn't overnight go "I hate Naruto now, lets make fun of it." It happened over *years*, more than a *decade* for some of us. Going from "this series is really good and I like it!" to "That arc was a little bit weak, maybe it'll be better next arc" (middle of part 2) to "wow, that arc was bad" to "holy crap this is awful" to "there is just no chance of this series ever fixing itself now" (around the Pain deus ex machina) to "is it over yet?"

    And by the time we got to the obvious end arc (and we didn't know it was going to last FOUR YEARS) we'd already been committed to it for a long time. Several years of enjoyment, then several years of hope... full of apathy, but still wanting to see how it ended... and commiserating with other in just HOW bad it had gotten. Its a nice release.

    Go back through the archives a couple years. Its no constant bitter bashing hatred, there were long periods of discussion, and hope, and often happy memories of the good days.

    Bleach is kind of the same but without the same highs Naruto once had, so we're not as connected to it, not as invested, and as a result, not as dissapointed in it. So it was easier to drop cold turkey at the end of an arc. Same with Fairy Tail which I just gave up on after about 200 chapters, it having never drawn me in to the characters or world at all.

    For my part I haven't read more than an odd Naruto chapter in years until this one, (generally when the reactions were extremely WTF) and I barely follow the thread anymore... because the drag-on on just got to me too much anymore and even the amusement of the thread wasn't enough to outweigh the inadequacies of the never ending war and constant dissapointment.


    Quote Originally Posted by Algetrig View Post
    Hold on you didn't enjoy the last few books of hp? Off topic a bit but why not?
    The later books lost all the whimsy, fun, and good characterization that made the earlier books enjoyable, and in their place we got lots of wangst... and material where clearly the editors were now afraid to tell the author to trim it down for better pacing because she was too big. The series getting darker as the characters got older was fine, but the *ammount* of it versus whimsy was in really bad proportion later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nex View Post
    Yes, there is legitimate criticism seen here. But it hasn't changed in three years. People just keep complainging about the same things they have been for years.
    Thats because Kishi did the exact same thing for three years. Not even any rainbows of hope or 6,000,000,000 exploding tags or armadillo penises or "half our army is dead in the first day, lol" to mix it up or. Just never-ending badly choreographed war with only one character being of any importance. We'd make new jokes and observations... but there wasn't ever anything new the last several years.

    Aside from the EXCELLENT Rock Lee spinoff, which we rave about and love at length, because it continues to deliver everything that we originally liked about it in the first place! Which just proves the point that we still like the world, the character, the story... it was just the execution and direction and art and overall package it turned into that we hated. But we raved at lenght about Rock Lee manga, singing its praises constantly, calling it "the Real Naruto". The spinoff is still golden! We all loved it! We were *super* positive and excited about that whenever it came out!


    Quote Originally Posted by Algetrig View Post
    I'm not ArmamentHero but I would say Naruto was good because most of its characters had interesting powers, the main character was well fleshed out and had meaningful interactions with the cast, the narrative was fun to follow, and it had exceptional fights.
    That described part 1 quite well.

    Now please say what was good about part 2.
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  11. #4971

    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    Welp, I guess I can't proclaim the Uchihas are super fucked up with their love cancer anymore. Because that would mean that I'm just bashing the same points over and over again to make myself feel better. Anything I say that isn't new and original is actually a reflection of how much I want validation by shitting on others.


  12. #4972

    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    Oh, and in the midst of the discussion, I forgot to say my actual reaction to the chapter.

    "This is how the ebola spreads."

  13. #4973

    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    Believe me, I said I'd give Naruto credit if this last battle was really grandstanding and gave it some dignity to go off on.

    With this chapter I'd say.....ehh. Some of the visuals were nice (Naruto covered in blood and determined to win, for instance), but it had too much melodrama. I don't even know to feel about the arm thing. Really cool or really bleh because they both had to lose them?





  14. #4974
    The Nice Guy Outerspec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    Quote Originally Posted by valiantt View Post
    That's my point. Madara doesn't have to do anything in the story to be redeemed in the eyes of the reader. All Kishi has to do is "LOOK! It's just like Obito/Kakashi, and inevitably Sasuke/Naruto. Clearly he's not a bad guy right? Now he's redeemed in all your eyes. Huzzah for him". That's what makes it stupid. He didn't do anything to deserve that comparison and the "friend" moment. It's just Kishi trying to impress the idea upon his readers.

    If he didn't want to convey this idea, he could have easily shoved him off screen and cross his fingers that everyone forgot what happened to his corpse.
    But nothing in Madara's final moments said, "Look, this guy is pretty cool, right?" It was purely of a moment of one friend saying goodbye to his greatest rival...probably only rival now that I think about it. Only in Hashirama's eyes was Madara a friend. Does that make him sympathetic and redeemable to the reader base? Surely not in your eyes and definitely not in mine.
    Everything's Eventual...


  15. #4975
    They say I am The Spaceman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    Man do I wish Naruto had remained with that Chunin Exams era quality. I'd be sad and excited to see it go. It'd go down as one of my favorites. Now, it's just sad to see go. It had such potential.

  16. #4976

    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    One wouldn't make as many gay jokes about the serie if Kishi didn't make it so god damn easy (I wonder if Kishi is actually oblivious to all this or is deliberately being self aware in his work). It's like prohibiting one to use the words "boobs" and "Fairy Tail" in the same sentence.


    PS: Apparently Nex wasn't around when that Rock Lee spinoff was going on.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Outerspec View Post
    But nothing in Madara's final moments said, "Look, this guy is pretty cool, right?" It was purely of a moment of one friend saying goodbye to his greatest rival...probably only rival now that I think about it. Only in Hashirama's eyes was Madara a friend. Does that make him sympathetic and redeemable to the reader base? Surely not in your eyes and definitely not in mine.
    It's not the scene itself and how it relates to the story, but the intention behind the scene. What is Kishi trying to evoke with the scene? Why not just shove Madara out of the story the moment he died?

  17. #4977
    Banned Rank: Failed Mutineer
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    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    I'm surprised no one has posted the image of Sasuke being punched in the face. So delicious.

  18. #4978
    The Nice Guy Outerspec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    Quote Originally Posted by valiantt View Post
    It's not the scene itself and how it relates to the story, but the intention behind the scene. What is Kishi trying to evoke with the scene? Why not just shove Madara out of the story the moment he died?
    A small farewell to a legend and one of the greatest ninja in the manga's history.

    If Kishi was trying to redeem Madara he did it in the least subtle and most ambiguous way possible.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by God of Skypeia View Post
    I'm surprised no one has posted the image of Sasuke being punched in the face. So delicious.
    http://img.mangastream.com/cdn/manga/49/2587/02.png
    I did laugh at how far Sasuke flew. That was one hell of an uppercut.
    Everything's Eventual...


  19. #4979

    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    Nuts, the picture where I posted where Sasuke said "Ah nuts, I number the pages wrong" is dead.

    EDIT: Lol at mangastream using "fucking"





  20. #4980

    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    I can't say I dislike Naruto.
    I loved it up to the end of the Tsunade arc and enjoyed many parts that came after it despite hating some others. The war was one of the worst things I ever read in every possible aspect, but I've grown to like the characters and the world behind them, so even if almost every week in the last years was made of complete disappointment and embarrassment, I can't say it made me dislike the manga as a whole. I ended up crying (a bit) when Naruto said goodbye to his father some weeks ago and I am pretty sure the same will happen next week.

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