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Thread: Bart Simpson Thread XI: The Movie - The Manga Adaption - The Animation

  1. #4941

    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outerspec View Post
    Besides the fact that they (Hashirama and Madara) never held hands, the reason why Obito was so horribly redeemed is because his younger self "resembled" Naruto in so many ways and Kishi wants us to continuously sympathize with Naruto and his determined innocence while showing us that sometimes people can lose their way but the ever unfailing Naruto can set them right again. If you can recall the exact same circumstances set up the same weak attempt of redemption for Nagato because he too was very much like Naruto in the past. Although Nagato was never forgiven Kishi did try to build up sympathy for his character by having him laughably revive everyone he just killed in the village because of a book title.

    Obitio (who was very much like Naruto) sacrificed his life to help Team 7 defeat Kaguya.
    Nagato (who was very much like Naruto) revived everyone he killed with the exception of Jiraiya.
    Itachi (who is now being shown compared to Naruto) supposedly prevented a war between the clans by massacring people.

    Madara did nothing to be redeemed and that's why he and pre-timeskip Orochimaru are some of the best villains in the series because they're just...bad.
    Yet why give him the "pleasant passing happy ending?" A guy that caused so much crap and you have him pass away with his lover. Yeah, if that's not Kishi attempt at saying "hay, he's totally NOT THAT BAD. In fact, I dare say he's a decent guy. Redeemed in all your eyes right?" Same goes for Orochimaru "He's not that bad. In fact, he's kinda like your neighborhood goofy pedo uncle. Look how funny he is. Har har har!" Not sure if he gave Orochimaru a redemption moment, but Kishi sure did try to put him in a "not so bad" guy category like what he forcibly did with Madara.

    One often thinks turning bad guys into good ones is an easy thing to do but...no, it's not. It requires a fair of development (instead of "HAY, he's just like Naruto guys. Can you see it? Yup? Okay, I don't need to go any further than that"), some shades of gray, and some tricky narrative maneuvering. Nagato was fairly stupid, Itachi was retconned terribly into being a "good guy", and Obito is simply the worst based on the fact that he was redeemed completely (to the point that he was put into that "cool guys" panel while Iruka was insultingly shoved off). I'm just baffled by the fact that Kishi doesn't grasp the idea that doing "one final good deed" doesn't automatically redeem someone with a history of causing misery to the extent that Obito did. That only puts them in a "dark-ish gray zone" rather than "good guy" zone. It would be like Hitler running into a burning building to save a puppy only to die of third degree burns in the hospital. He's a good guy right? Yup, completely absolves every crap he has done before hand.

  2. #4942
    The Nice Guy Outerspec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    Quote Originally Posted by valiantt View Post
    Yet why give him the "pleasant passing happy ending?" A guy that caused so much crap and you have him pass away with his lover. Yeah, if that's not Kishi attempt at saying "hay, he's totally NOT THAT BAD. In fact, I dare say he's a decent guy. Redeemed in all your eyes right?" Same goes for Orochimaru "He's not that bad. In fact, he's kinda like your neighborhood goofy pedo uncle. Look how funny he is. Har har har!" Not sure if he gave Orochimaru a redemption moment, but Kishi sure did try to put him in a "not so bad" guy category like what he forcibly did with Madara.

    One often thinks turning bad guys into good ones is an easy thing to do but...no, it's not. It requires a fair of development (instead of "HAY, he's just like Naruto guys. Can you see it? Yup? Okay, I don't need to go any further than that"), some shades of gray, and some tricky narrative maneuvering. Nagato was fairly stupid, Itachi was retconned terribly into being a "good guy", and Obito is simply the worst based on the fact that he was redeemed completely (to the point that he was put into that "cool guys" panel while Iruka was insultingly shoved off). I'm just baffled by the fact that Kishi doesn't grasp the idea that doing "one final good deed" doesn't automatically redeem someone with a history of causing misery to the extent that Obito did. That only puts them in a "dark-ish gray zone" rather than "good guy" zone. It would be like Hitler running into a burning building to save a puppy only to die of third degree burns in the hospital. He's a good guy right? Yup, completely absolves ever crap he has done before hand.
    Orochimaru actually helped out Sasuke and the Shinobi Alliance by reviving the previous Hokages so that's why I said pre-timeship Orochimaru.

    Again, Madara did nothing but die peacefully with his failed dreams and his rival telling him goodbye. Not much of a redemption.
    Everything's Eventual...


  3. #4943

    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Hermit View Post
    Again, time investment for something we already *had* expectations of and we *do* want to see the ending of. Yes, it was clear that he wasn't going to keep up what he promised us at the beginning, but the war was already looking like it *should* be the end of the series.

    Which is true, but not in the way as was intended

    not like Fairy Tail which has zero ending in sight and hasn't had that investment in
    Maybe if they didn't invest all that time reading something that's disappointing to them. Maybe they could avoid disappointment. I did it with Bleach, but I try not bash it, you know?
    Here’s how Naruto should end: Last panel is Naruto standing proudly over Konohagakure. Slowly zoom out to reveal Luffy staring into a snowglobe with a miniature Konoha inside it. Usopp asks him what he’s doing. Luffy replies “Thinkin’ bout ninjas! Ninjas are cool!” and then chucks it off the ship

  4. #4944

    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outerspec View Post
    Orochimaru actually helped out Sasuke and the Shinobi Alliance by reviving the previous Hokages so that's why I said pre-timeship Orochimaru.

    Again, Madara did nothing but die peacefully with his failed dreams and his rival telling him goodbye. Not much of a redemption.
    Ugh Orochimaru. I don't even want to get into what a dreck he turned out to be in part 2. He pretty much turned into a freaking stooge if one is to compare what he did in part 1. Pretty much one of the top five characters bastardized by the end of the serie.

    Harishima's final quote suggests otherwise. "Comrade." YUP! Comrade. I don't know what else to insinuate from that line. Heck, even Madara seemed baffled by that line.
    http://mangafox.me/manga/naruto/vTBD/c691/13.html

  5. #4945

    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    Daily reminder that Yamamoto's still stuck in a wall.

    Also Anko's lying around somewhere and Killer Bee fucked off to who knows where.

  6. #4946

    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    And Jiraiya?...WHO KNOWS?!

  7. #4947

    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmamentHero View Post
    Maybe if they didn't invest all that time reading something that's disappointing to them. Maybe they could avoid disappointment. I did it with Bleach, but I try not bash it, you know?
    The investment's already been made, though. It's like a longstanding book series you used to enjoy but now lost that love but still want to see *how* it ends.

    Like Harry Potter I didn't really enjoy in the last few books, but I still stuck around to the end because I wanted to see how it wrapped up.

    Also Wagomu's point on actually saying why it's bad, but you get to that point with Naruto because there *was* still that feeling of goodness that drew you in in the first place.

  8. #4948

    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Hermit View Post
    The investment's already been made, though. It's like a longstanding book series you used to enjoy but now lost that love but still want to see *how* it ends.

    Like Harry Potter I didn't really enjoy in the last few books, but I still stuck around to the end because I wanted to see how it wrapped up.

    Also Wagomu's point on actually saying why it's bad, but you get to that point with Naruto because there *was* still that feeling of goodness that drew you in in the first place.
    Yeah, you're right, I even admitted, that Naruto wasn't as great as part 1, but it was still good. Despite the obvious inconsistencies, character management and plot holes. It still was good, not the greatest, not the worse.
    Here’s how Naruto should end: Last panel is Naruto standing proudly over Konohagakure. Slowly zoom out to reveal Luffy staring into a snowglobe with a miniature Konoha inside it. Usopp asks him what he’s doing. Luffy replies “Thinkin’ bout ninjas! Ninjas are cool!” and then chucks it off the ship

  9. #4949
    Discovered Stowaway Algetrig's Avatar
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    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Hermit View Post
    The investment's already been made, though. It's like a longstanding book series you used to enjoy but now lost that love but still want to see *how* it ends.

    Like Harry Potter I didn't really enjoy in the last few books, but I still stuck around to the end because I wanted to see how it wrapped up.

    Also Wagomu's point on actually saying why it's bad, but you get to that point with Naruto because there *was* still that feeling of goodness that drew you in in the first place.
    Hold on you didn't enjoy the last few books of hp? Off topic a bit but why not?

    When I'm talking to people who don't read manga and I'm coming up for analogies for the big three in manga I compare them to book series. A Song of Ice and Fire for One Piece, Harry Potter for Naruto, and Twilight for Bleach.

  10. #4950

    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmamentHero View Post
    Yeah, you're right, I even admitted, that Naruto wasn't as great as part 1, but it was still good. Despite the obvious inconsistencies, character management and plot holes. It still was good, not the greatest, not the worse.
    At least we can all agree that Naruto is no Shaman King

    for whatever that is worth

  11. #4951

    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmamentHero View Post
    Yeah, you're right, I even admitted, that Naruto wasn't as great as part 1, but it was still good. Despite the obvious inconsistencies, character management and plot holes. It still was good, not the greatest, not the worse.
    I still haven't heard why it was good in spite of the flaws. And mind you, there's a TON of flaws.

  12. #4952
    The Nice Guy Outerspec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    Quote Originally Posted by valiantt View Post
    Ugh Orochimaru. I don't even want to get into what a dreck he turned out to be in part 2. He pretty much turned into a freaking stooge if one is to compare what he did in part 1. Pretty much one of the top five characters bastardized by the end of the serie.

    Harishima's final quote suggests otherwise. "Comrade." YUP! Comrade. I don't know what else to insinuate from that line. Heck, even Madara seemed baffled by that line.
    http://mangafox.me/manga/naruto/vTBD/c691/13.html
    There's nothing to insinuate except that Hashirama always saw Madara as a friend.

    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/621/9

    That hasn't changed since the beginning of their rivalry.
    Everything's Eventual...


  13. #4953

    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    Only Kishimoto would completely waste the opportunity to make Naruto hokage on his own birthday, and instead have him spend the day fighting with his boyfriend.

    Not very surprising from the master of missed opportunities.

  14. #4954

    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Hermit View Post
    At least we can all agree that Naruto is no Shaman King

    for whatever that is worth
    Shaman King's overall writing, characterization, and art was full of holes. Yet, it also lasted awhile didn't it?
    Here’s how Naruto should end: Last panel is Naruto standing proudly over Konohagakure. Slowly zoom out to reveal Luffy staring into a snowglobe with a miniature Konoha inside it. Usopp asks him what he’s doing. Luffy replies “Thinkin’ bout ninjas! Ninjas are cool!” and then chucks it off the ship

  15. #4955

    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmamentHero View Post
    Shaman King's overall writing, characterization, and art was full of holes. Yet, it also lasted awhile didn't it?
    Again, popularity means jack squat to actual quality

  16. #4956

    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outerspec View Post
    There's nothing to insinuate except that Hashirama always saw Madara as a friend.

    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/621/9

    That hasn't changed since the beginning of their rivalry.
    Yet Madara didn't see it that way (hence his baffled response with the comrade line). The fact that Hashirama utilized that line is a grating parallel to the Kakashi+Naruto/Obito and eventually Naruto/Sasuke thing; thus bringing the embarrassing circle of redeeming the Uchihas in general to a close with the story's two main characters. The line was utilized to indicate that Madara should be redeemed regardless as he is still considered to be Hashirama's friend (much like how Sasuke will get his with Naruto going on and on about him being a "friend" the entire time in spite of Sasuke thinking otherwise). So what I believe Kishi is trying to do here is suggesting that it's not Madara's action that redeems Madara but the fact that Hashirama still sees him as a friend in the end which makes Madara's character "redeemable".

    Also, it seems to be a fairly obvious move to make ALL the Uchihas "redeemed" in a way and Madara is no exception to this.

    But it's all horseshit.

  17. #4957

    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    Quote Originally Posted by valiantt View Post
    I still haven't heard why it was good in spite of the flaws. And mind you, there's a TON of flaws.
    The good parts, alright. Part 2 had some great characters with great ability, The action sequences involving Hidan, Kakuzu against Naruto and company was really well done. The dialogue between Pain and Naruto was quite good. Sasuke's small adventure with Team Hawk after Orochimaru's death was entertaining because of the interactions between them. Sasuke's fight with Itachi was well balanced. The war showed how powerful the Juubi was. The plot concerning the Sage of the Six path's was good. What I thought was well written and you think is different. But at least I'm able list some aspects.
    Here’s how Naruto should end: Last panel is Naruto standing proudly over Konohagakure. Slowly zoom out to reveal Luffy staring into a snowglobe with a miniature Konoha inside it. Usopp asks him what he’s doing. Luffy replies “Thinkin’ bout ninjas! Ninjas are cool!” and then chucks it off the ship

  18. #4958
    Discovered Stowaway Algetrig's Avatar
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    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    Quote Originally Posted by valiantt View Post
    I still haven't heard why it was good in spite of the flaws. And mind you, there's a TON of flaws.
    I'm not ArmamentHero but I would say Naruto was good because most of its characters had interesting powers, the main character was well fleshed out and had meaningful interactions with the cast, the narrative was fun to follow, and it had exceptional fights.

  19. #4959

    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Hermit View Post
    Again, popularity means jack squat to actual quality
    This is true. Even if one side says it has poor writing, the other side is going to say it was well done. It's honestly stupid to argue about any story and it's plot holes because of that.
    Here’s how Naruto should end: Last panel is Naruto standing proudly over Konohagakure. Slowly zoom out to reveal Luffy staring into a snowglobe with a miniature Konoha inside it. Usopp asks him what he’s doing. Luffy replies “Thinkin’ bout ninjas! Ninjas are cool!” and then chucks it off the ship

  20. #4960

    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmamentHero View Post
    This is true. Even if one side says it has poor writing, the other side is going to say it was well done. It's honestly stupid to argue about any story and it's plot holes because of that.
    No, plot holes and story have actual qualities that can be assessed. Unlike some basic level english class, there *are* things that are fundamentally build a good story, and there are things that make things inconsistent and difficult. You can have an opinion on how you enjoy themes, certain aspects such as if you enjoy gore or a way things are presented, but you can still argue whether something is executed well or how elements are utilized effectively in the story or how consistent something is, these are all things that can be assessed. Now, we may never come to a meeting place for it, but discussion other than "well I felt​ it was good" is something that *can* be done.

    But popularity is not one of those metrics. To take it to the extreme, I highly doubt that people will say Twilight is superb writing, but the invisible hand of the market has already spoken.

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