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Thread: Bart Simpson Thread XI: The Movie - The Manga Adaption - The Animation

  1. #4881
    True Believer rereboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyan D. Funk View Post
    Oh my god not this shit again.
    Read my last sentence.

  2. #4882

    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmamentHero View Post
    Yes, there are people that actually see the story as a masterpiece and so on. In defence, there was alot of other inconsistent stories that were successful.
    Then sorry to say, but they're dumbasses that don't know what a "good" story is. And just because it is successful, doesn't make it "good". It can be enjoyable, but it's not a "good" story. Ask anyone if "retcons, incosnsistency, etc..." are a "good" thing, and if they say, "yeah, they're fun and they make for a great story"; then pretty much their opinion should never be taken seriously. No one will say that these are "good" forms of storytelling.

    And Naruto...has a lot of these flaws.

  3. #4883

    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    I like how that guy went on this nauseating thoughtless and really quite bilious schpiel about how everything is opinion.... And then tidies it up by adding except science, yeah science has nothing to so with human perspective nope

    I really dislike how this trend of natural subjectivit wrought a series of bottom feeding numbskulls who in the effort to propagate the doctrine of subjective thought really do no thinking at all

    Sent from my Motorola moto g while shitting in a public bathroom

  4. #4884
    Voici La Chévre Wagomu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    'Good' and 'bad' are subjective, at the end of the day, sure, but there are a lot of objective details that make one conclusion much easier to reach than the other.

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  5. #4885
    Discovered Stowaway Algetrig's Avatar
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    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.



    I know Naruto has given his "Because we're friends" speech like 1000 times but I thought this was really a poignant way to describe it for the last time. Its little things like this that made this last chapter even more effective.

  6. #4886

    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    One more note: I still can't grasp the fact that people think that enjoyable/high popularity = good story. They're completely different, but somehow folks keep trying to make this equation work.

    Although a good story = enjoyable/highly popular serie, but not necessarily visa versa. Why is this so hard to understand?

  7. #4887
    True Believer rereboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laffitte View Post
    I like how that guy went on this nauseating thoughtless and really quite bilious schpiel about how everything is opinion.... And then tidies it up by adding except science, yeah science has nothing to so with human perspective nope
    That was merely an example. If you want another, its simple. How about this:

    - the mountain known as Everest exists on the planet known as Earth. This is something objective. Even if no humans or any life forms existed on Earth to name the mountain and realize its there, the mountain would still be there.

    - the mountain known as Everest is beautiful/ugly/good/bad/frightening/appealing/etc. This is subjective. I don't think I need to explain why since I already did in my last post.

    But of course, you can just label my post in all manner of adjectives instead of showing where my logic is faulty.... It won't be as effective in demonstrating your point, though... Quite the opposite.

  8. #4888

    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    Quote Originally Posted by valiantt View Post
    Then sorry to say, but they're dumbasses that don't know what a "good" story is. And just because it is successful, doesn't make it "good". It can be enjoyable, but it's not a "good" story. Ask anyone if "retcons, incosnsistency, etc..." are a "good" thing, and if they say, "yeah, they're fun and they make for a great story"; then pretty much their opinion should never be taken seriously. No one will say that these are "good" forms of storytelling.

    And Naruto...has a lot of these flaws.
    It's hard to accept anyone's opinion when it comes to discussions on such a matter. As for calling them dumbasses, that's a bit over the top, don't you think? In the end, they're going to like/love what they want to, regardless of what others think.
    Here’s how Naruto should end: Last panel is Naruto standing proudly over Konohagakure. Slowly zoom out to reveal Luffy staring into a snowglobe with a miniature Konoha inside it. Usopp asks him what he’s doing. Luffy replies “Thinkin’ bout ninjas! Ninjas are cool!” and then chucks it off the ship

  9. #4889
    Saemon Havarian Razh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Algetrig View Post
    I know Naruto has given his "Because we're friends" speech like 1000 times but I thought this was really a poignant way to describe it for the last time. Its little things like this that made this last chapter even more effective.
    At least he wasn't repeating what he said before.

    Btw, when people are asked why they like something, they can never quite put their finger on it, but when you ask them why they dislike something, they will instantly be able to tell you!
    Quote Originally Posted by Outerspec View Post
    Trying to understand Bleach is like trying to drink a bottle of bleach.

    It makes no sense and you'll be dead before you're finished.

  10. #4890

    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmamentHero View Post
    It's hard to accept anyone's opinion when it comes to discussions on such a matter. As for calling them dumbasses, that's a bit over the top, don't you think? In the end, they're going to like/love what they want to, regardless of what others think.
    Yeah it is a tad blunt but in the end, it's remarkably flawed thinking to consider that these elements make for a good story. No one will agree to that (or to word it better, no one SHOULD agree to that because some folks just don't know any better). There is a difference between something that you enjoy and something that is actually "good". An enjoyable story can be flawed, but a good story will try to minimize these flaws.

    They can like it/love it. Sure whatever floats their boat, BUT going around and calling it a good story without legitimate reasons for why it's good and how it outweighs the bad is pretty much...a flawed approach to evaluating the story.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Razh View Post
    At least he wasn't repeating what he said before.

    Btw, when people are asked why they like something, they can never quite put their finger on it, but when you ask them why they dislike something, they will instantly be able to tell you!
    I don't have a hard time with this at all. If you ask why I enjoy something like...I dunno, "One Punch Man", I can easily give a lot of reasons why it's good and how it outweighs the overall flaws. But I have yet to see anyone do this effectively with Naruto (but damn do the Bleach-ites do a remarkable job at trying to legitimize Bleach's effectiveness).

  11. #4891
    Saemon Havarian Razh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    Quote Originally Posted by valiantt View Post
    I don't have a hard time with this at all. If you ask why I enjoy something like...I dunno, "One Punch Man", I can easily give a lot of reasons why it's good and how it outweighs the overall flaws. But I have yet to see anyone do this effectively with Naruto (but damn do the Bleach-ites do a remarkable job at trying to legitimize Bleach's effectiveness).
    That's ok, I was joking around. It's a Bleach quote, but it was about fear.
    Quote Originally Posted by Outerspec View Post
    Trying to understand Bleach is like trying to drink a bottle of bleach.

    It makes no sense and you'll be dead before you're finished.

  12. #4892

    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    People mixing up opinions with legit criticism of story elements again.

    Now, whether you agree with the criticism is a different matter. That's how debates go. Then you bring up counter examples that bring light to your rationale.

    You don't just go "Now that's like, your opinion, man"

  13. #4893

    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Razh View Post
    That's ok, I was joking around. It's a Bleach quote, but it was about fear.
    Oh, for some bizarre reason I find it hard to read sarcasm in the Naruto thread.

  14. #4894

    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    Not trying to defend naruto but defining objectivity first:
    ob·jec·tive
    adj.
    1. Of or having to do with a material object.
    2. Having actual existence or reality.
    3.
    a. Uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices
    b. Based on observable phenomena; presented factually: an objective appraisal.

    Objectivity is a central philosophical concept, related to reality and truth, which has been variously defined by sources. Generally, objectivity means the state or quality of being true even outside of a subject's individual biases, interpretations, feelings, and imaginings. A proposition is generally considered objectively true (to have objective truth) when its truth conditions are met and are "mind-independent"—that is, existing freely or independently from a mind (from the thoughts, feelings, ideas, etc. of a sentient subject).

    Good and bad are concepts from the mind therefore subjective.
    Last edited by Monkey D. Destiny; October 29th, 2014 at 09:38 AM.

  15. #4895

    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Hermit View Post
    People mixing up opinions with legit criticism of story elements again.

    Now, whether you agree with the criticism is a different matter. That's how debates go. Then you bring up counter examples that bring light to your rationale.

    You don't just go "Now that's like, your opinion, man"
    I don't like this. Therefore your opinion on the matter is not "good". Your opinion is BAD!

    BAD!

  16. #4896

    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    I mean like seriously, I don't claim to be objective about my disdain of Naruto. That's my opinion.

    But on the other hand, neglecting that there *are* legit structures and elements to a story which give make or break it is incredibly ignorant.

    Even more ignorant, the measurement of how "good" a story is based on fanbase and numbers.

  17. #4897

    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    Quote Originally Posted by valiantt View Post
    Yeah it is a tad blunt but in the end, it's remarkably flawed thinking to consider that these elements make for a good story. No one will agree to that (or to word it better, no one SHOULD agree to that because some folks just don't know any better). There is a difference between something that you enjoy and something that is actually "good". An enjoyable story can be flawed, but a good story will try to minimize these flaws.

    They can like it/love it. Sure whatever floats their boat, BUT going around and calling it a good story without legitimate reasons for why it's good and how it outweighs the bad is pretty much...a flawed approach to evaluating the story.
    I like what you just said, I can't help, but agree with this. Concerning both Naruto and Bleach, at the beginning of the story, they had a very interesting/unique concept to them. However, as I read them, I could blatantly see mistakes made, which turned into huge unexplained plot holes. The art was somewhat shaky, but it wasn't bad. The character designs were okay, some got better with time, some stayed tacky. However, the reason why I like Naruto as an overall story was because I felt the representation of redemption can be achieved through understanding. I liked the fact that Kishi tried to write a story that revolves around redemption and hate. My only wish would be for Kishi to have kept a solid foundation and concept through out the series because the foundation became a tightrope, because he tried to do way too much. However, there were times, where I thought the dialogue, art, and transition were great. So, I like it, but I don't necessarily love it.
    Here’s how Naruto should end: Last panel is Naruto standing proudly over Konohagakure. Slowly zoom out to reveal Luffy staring into a snowglobe with a miniature Konoha inside it. Usopp asks him what he’s doing. Luffy replies “Thinkin’ bout ninjas! Ninjas are cool!” and then chucks it off the ship

  18. #4898
    Discovered Stowaway
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    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    Let's forget the fact Naruto's war arc was shit for a moment, and think back to the start of this fight, and this fight only. How could Kishi have resolved this conflict differently, in a superior way? And yes, I have seen the "this sucks because the build-up sucks" argument several times already, but if we approach each chapter that way, then it's pretty damn pointless to discuss this manga at all.

    Anyway: I'm sure there are things to improve here (personally I didn't that "chakra absorbtion" bit, for example). But those are minor bits. From the sounds of it, most people here would have only considered a drastically different ending "good". Personally I have a hard time thinking of something and liked the way Kishi approached this whole conflict for pretty much the first time ever, and enjoyed the resolution despite (or more like because) it was resolved by a long "talk no jutsu". Yes, I disliked the conflict as a whole as well and still do, but it was still resolved in a good way. That does not make the whole thing good out of the sudden (which seems to be the scare of some people here).

    So, instead of the usual "Why don't they just fuck already LOL XD" shit we've seen during each Sasuke-Naruto conflict, what ending would you guys, who bash this resolution so heavily, considered a good one? If you don't think it should have been drastically different, what small bits do you dislike so much about this battle to engage in such a strong discussion about it?

  19. #4899

    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    Me saying the word "objective" was practically poking a sleeping lion and for that I can not apologize enough.

    However this series has done a ton of shit in the 2nd part where it is borderline impossible to argue was actually good in the essence of actual good logical writing.

    A great example of that bullshit would be the ending of the Sasuke vs. Deidara fight.



  20. #4900
    Voici La Chévre Wagomu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Naruto Thread XI: It's the final countdown! Frenchiboos.

    Most of us explore our own personal 'good' and 'bad' so that we know that we're wasting our time as effectively as possible.

    I really did cherish my hatred of this series for a while, since its undeniably poor quality was the particular kind that was funny to laugh at. It was like watching a clown fall down and then fail to get up twenty times in a row in completely different ways. Misogyny? Check. Unreasonable lapses in judgment by experienced mercenaries? Check. Retcons that destroy fan favorite character development? Check. Armadillo shlong? Check. The list goes on. This series' fuckups have been a consistent source of and inspiration to amusing commentaries and antics in its fresh rottenness. The weekly Naruto read was filled with wonder as we watched Kishi crack through layer after layer of rock bottom.

    The war arc, though, and this finale as a whole has just been stagnant, especially towards the end. Bland, directionless action over bland, directionless dialogue. Chapter after chapter. It wouldn't have been worth the read if we didn't have the promise of this bloated corpse finally bursting open from the pressure built up by its own noxious rot gas. That and the fact that reading a chapter required so little effort of thought that it couldn't qualify as a waste of time.

    See, there I am parsing my like and dislike of this shitty series. It isn't just load of miracles and fairy dust. These are the machinations what lie beyond the goat that is my brain. I give similar scrutiny to the other bad shit I watch for laughs. It's the difference between watching The Room and an Adam Sandler movie.

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