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Thread: The "Shueisha" Thread

  1. #1401

    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    Citation needed on that one.

    I need to see it to believe it.

  2. #1402

    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    Speaking of which, what exactly is taijutsu ?

  3. #1403

    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    Assuming Naruto is accurate in its usage of the word, martial arts.
    ~Stargazer~, ~Distance~ original stories.
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  4. #1404

    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    Quote Originally Posted by Silence View Post
    I've practically written... dissertations on why Reborn is awful over in the Reborn thread. I'll just rip one from over there (thanks Kareem!):



    tl;dr version: horrible fights, wretched, useless characters (including the most deliberately obnoxious character any manga I've read [he-who-will-not-be-named]), plotted like naruto p.2, only one or two good arcs in the entire series, potty humor, subtle-as-a-brick writing.
    good points are character designs (sort of), and anyone who actually ACTS like a mafioso, which is to say Xanxus, Squallo, Hibari, Yamamoto, and Reborn himself.

    It's just, really, really bad at everything it tries to do. BUT IT'S GOT PRETTY BOYS SO IT'S HERE TO STAY uguu~
    Interesting.

    Would you say there are plot holes/ retcons as heinous as in Bleach for example ?

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Crossword View Post
    Assuming Naruto is accurate in its usage of the word, martial arts.
    Weird, I've seen people mentioning Naruto a lot over the years, even check the thread every now and then, and yet.....I never noticed that word getting mentioned.

  5. #1405
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    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    Quote Originally Posted by No Maam View Post
    Interesting.

    Would you say there are plot holes/ retcons as heinous as in Bleach for example ?
    There are some particularly bad plot issues now thanks to a Ten Years into the Future Time Travel arc, but really the manga's biggest problem is poorly introduced concepts and meandering character development. Like, remember in the beginning of Naruto how they explained the differences between Ninjutsu (like fireballs), Taijutsu (martial arts like Rock Lee uses), and Genjutsu (illusions) and how some people specialized in one thing or another and each had its own benefits and weaknesses? Like, genjutsu was only useful one-on-one, because a partner can attack you while you're trying it? Overusing ninjutsu can quickly deplete your chakra, taijutsu doesn't use chakra but you need to be up close to use it? There are other, better examples, but essentially when somebody said "that person is good at ninjutsu but bad at taijutsu" you knew what to expect from them. It narratively gave you a sense of whether someone was well matched against someone else.

    Reborn's "flame" system was shoehorned into the plot halfway through the manga to explain why characters that up until now just used bats and dynamite and fists were all of a sudden throwing fireballs around. There are 7 poorly defined "elements" and how they interact with each other or what they do to each other is more or less anyone's guess, because despite the occasional description of them whether they will actually work is almost always decided at random. As plot elements although they're always there, they're sometimes forgotten about, sometimes remembered.

    "Hey, shouldn't Ryohei's Sun Flame be healing his wounds every time he takes damage, making this new upgrade of his that converts pain into power safer to use?" "...No? It's just not working right now? HMM."
    "So Yamamoto's Rain Flame (derp) should be calming all these other flames, right? Because that's what it does." "No? It's not this time? HMM. I guess Mist has just got it like that."
    "Storm blows everything away, right?" "...I guess not??? LOOKS LIKE YOU LOSE AGAIN, GOKUDERA 0-13"

    They introduced, randomly, a pokemon battle sort of system in the extremely long and stupid future arc, and brought it back with them in the past because it would've seemed pretty dumb to have this huge arc where all of these upgrades were based off of genjutsu sea slugs and lightning oysters and sun peacocks (i am not kidding) and none of them carried over. And they do this sort of thing all the time: "HERE'S A NEW UPGRADE didn't you know about this the whole time, ha ha ha" I'm talking mostly about the fights mostly, but really even the writing is just really childish and predictable and annoying and dumb - heavy on exposition, on ALL of the good guys being useless, and chock full of "see look Tsuna REALLY is the second coming of the first hokage--I mean mob boss." Its new concepts and ideas fall flat on their face most of the time because they're all incredibly derivative and poorly established -- not given nearly enough attention.

    And also, impossible to believe.

    It's worse than Fairy Tail, and fighting HARD to be worse than Bleach. Of the three, I certainly dislike it the most, because at least Fairy Tail has Erza and Juvia and Luxus and Gildartz and Gazille, and Bleach has Squad 11 and Mayuri and Shunsui and Urahara and Yoruichi and a few other characters that you want to like, WANT to rescue from Bleach and put them in another, much better series. Reborn is just full of characters you grow to hate. Aggressively, furiously. And unfortunately, they're pretty much the entire main cast, save one or two.

    There's just a lot of things wrong with it in every way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wagomu View Post
    There's a great lighthearted vibe around here, because no matter how serious we might get, we're all together because of some magical pirate.

  6. #1406

    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    Lightning oysters , sun peacocks.....

    And no Ocean Sunfish ? What the hell ?

    Since you brought up FT it had some prety horrible retconing too. In fact the worst retcon I ever read wasn't in fact anything from Bleach, but the end of the Oracion Seis arc, literaly writing Wendy's guild out of existence, saying that all members were illusions made by one ghost so Wendy could feel secure or something.

    Never mind they got invited to atend a joint guilt meeting.

    Anything of this level ?

  7. #1407

    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    Quote Originally Posted by Silence View Post
    good points are character designs (sort of), and anyone who actually ACTS like a mafioso, which is to say Xanxus, Squallo, Hibari, Yamamoto, and Reborn himself.
    I can grant you the others (and Gokudera will always be my favorite), but HIBARI? The utter psycho who's been all "I'MA BITE YOU TO DEATH" for the entire fucking series, but Amano has YET to ever give any kind of explanation as to why a middle-schooler was acting like that in the first place, or even why he was able to get away with shit like chucking guys out of windows? Ugh.

    He has done some cool shit here and there, but the total lack of explanation for his character is priobably the thing in that series that bothers me the most.
    この世に悪があるとすればそれは人の心だ。

  8. #1408
    is Stolen Silence's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Lord Zenigame View Post
    I can grant you the others (and Gokudera will always be my favorite), but HIBARI? The utter psycho who's been all "I'MA BITE YOU TO DEATH" for the entire fucking series, but Amano has YET to ever give any kind of explanation as to why a middle-schooler was acting like that in the first place, or even why he was able to get away with shit like chucking guys out of windows? Ugh.

    He has done some cool shit here and there, but the total lack of explanation for his character is priobably the thing in that series that bothers me the most.
    You have to understand it's all relative. In the context of Reborn, for me, it's "which of these characters don't make me want to stab my eyes out with a pen?" Would Hibari be able to stand alone as his own character in another series? Probably not. But after all these years of Derpy McGee and the Sunshine Band, Hibari and Yamamoto are the only characters who shut the fuck up, don't pontificate endlessly on what they're going to do, and get shit DONE. While everybody else is acting like Scooby and Shaggy on the set of a George Romero movie, they swagger in, completely ignore or laugh off whatever the badguy is taunting them about, and do whatever they set out to do.

    Yamamoto I really find refreshing as a character, and would enjoy even in another series (I think he'd be a great lead, actually). He's affable, almost willfully ignorant but at the same time surprisingly canny, has internal struggles, knows the time for seriousness and for jokes, and when to ask for help. If he was the lead of Reborn and the series was about him having to choose and balance between becoming a pro-baseball player and a badass assassin Mafia boss, the series would be twenty times better.

    Hibari I appreciate if only because he takes this one idea and REALLY runs with it: the head of the school disciplinary committee. Attack a student? BITE TO DEATH. Look at him funny? BITE TO DEATH. Blow up the school with bombs? BITE TO DEATH. Sure he's a shallow character and something of a Johnny One Note, but it's nice to have a character that is said in the beginning of the manga, unequivocally, to be the "strongest student," to still carry that title when going up against mafia assassins, experimental robot murder machines, hitmen and all other nature of lame freaks that this series has.

    Facing down Gala Mosca? This hyped to hell war machine of death and destruction? BITE TO DEATH. Taken out in one shot. Why? The cast looks at it like it's a foregone conclusion: "because he's the strongest student." Utterly preposterous, but perhaps one of the few instances where the merging of every day school living and this weaksauce mafia world actually work for me.

    It helps that they aren't Tsuna, Gokudera, Chrome, Lambo, Ryohei, [He-Who-Will-Not-Be-Named], the lame side characters the author forgot she made, Mukuro's lame friends, Byakuran, Genkishi, Fran, the "Other" half of Varia, every fangless Vongola mafia mook, everyone from every other mafia in this series, or the girls. With a cast like that, I'll take the affable yet serious little-leaguer swordsman, over them. With a cast like that, I'll take the guy who can take out 500 Adelheids while yawning, over them.



    In a series of so much awful, you've gotta take what you can get.

    Edit: And no, No Maam, not really. FT takes the cake on that one.
    Last edited by Silence; May 4th, 2011 at 01:30 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wagomu View Post
    There's a great lighthearted vibe around here, because no matter how serious we might get, we're all together because of some magical pirate.

  9. #1409
    S+ Rated Ghoul Kareem Said's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    Quote Originally Posted by Fezzik View Post
    At last a group started scanning this series

    http://www.mangareader.net/sengoku-armors
    Okay, Thank you!
    @Bat Dan. Yeah that is unbelievably hypocritical. If true, I would like some actual evidence.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    [QUOTE=Silence;2228491] a few characters that you want to like, WANT to rescue from Bleach and put them in another, much better series
    I have the same thing with many characters from Naruto. And I don't know why, but I'm starting to think you really hate Reborn. I guess I should stay away from it.
    My Hero Academia is my favorite manga series right now. At least so long as the high of its greatness remains. United States of Smash.

  10. #1410

    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    I forget where I heard that, probably on NarutoFan or something. It's been a while.

  11. #1411

    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    I get the feeling this should be going in the reborn thread, but I guess I'll chime in anyway.

    What really grinds my gears is that they never fight two battles with the same power. Each arc sees the main characters matching up against the enemies, and tsuna sometimes gets an easy fight in the beginning and then a hard one in the end. But between each fight, everybody gets a new power. These powers often completely change their fighting style, and makes it so that you never get to see a character take their power and develop it, you only see them get new abilities arbitrarily.

    Compare to something like One Piece, which said "Luffy is made out of rubber. Let's see how far we can stretch that." and then goes through the usual stretch to reach, bouncing like a balloon, damage resistant, to using the snap-back properties of rubber for extra impact to using every damn body part as a weapon, to bouncing punches off the wall, to going limp like an octopus, then inflating like a balloon, vulcanizing, winding up in a coil, etc etc. It is just so good.

    Reborn gave Gokudera dynamite that he throws. He got able to direct them mid-flight. then he got an arm cannon. then he got a system that shoots multiple flame colors and intertwines them. then he got a magic cat and missiles or something. then he gets homing missiles and an exploding cat. It is just so frustrating to know that "oh, that power was kinda cool. too bad it'll be different next time." or "that sucked. Maybe he'll do some new tricks with it? oh wait nope just an entirely new thing for no reason."

    also the art is just so messy I don't even know sometimes. There's this page. http://www.mangareader.net/284-57486...apter-306.html

    What the hell sort of punch is that even? Is he punching the guy in the dick? in the stomach? in the chest? are we looking at this from top-down, right behind the puncher, 45 degree angle? it's just too messy.
    Last edited by Big_Bad_Lith; May 5th, 2011 at 10:52 PM. Reason: I can't believe no one has noticed this yet...

  12. #1412
    Mumblecore Gliblord's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    This made me snort.

  13. #1413
    S+ Rated Ghoul Kareem Said's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    Yeah I do have no idea what's going on in that panel, I'm glad I don't read this series.
    Edit: @Gliblord same here.
    My Hero Academia is my favorite manga series right now. At least so long as the high of its greatness remains. United States of Smash.

  14. #1414
    DON'T EVER BLINK. Sniper King's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    I-I thought it was funny, too...
    Whazzat from? Reborn?

  15. #1415
    S+ Rated Ghoul Kareem Said's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    Upon reading the first chapter of Sengoku Armors that has come out in Jump, I stand by what I say about it having potential. The main character seems pretty cool and funny, the premise is fairly interesting and the action is pretty good. It's impossible to say how the series as a whole will pan out, if it'll get better or worse (hopefully the former) but for now I'd say it looks like it has potential.
    My Hero Academia is my favorite manga series right now. At least so long as the high of its greatness remains. United States of Smash.

  16. #1416

    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    Sengoku armors has he interested. Oda Nobunaga gets vilified often in Japanese media, so it's surprising to see his ideals presented as "working for the peace and light" which couldn't have been further from the truth. And then having his daughter as a main character, and his betrayer as the lead... with Hideyoshi as the villain. An interesting set up indeed.

  17. #1417

    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    Quote Originally Posted by Silence View Post
    You have to understand it's all relative. In the context of Reborn, for me, it's "which of these characters don't make me want to stab my eyes out with a pen?" Would Hibari be able to stand alone as his own character in another series? Probably not. But after all these years of Derpy McGee and the Sunshine Band, Hibari and Yamamoto are the only characters who shut the fuck up, don't pontificate endlessly on what they're going to do, and get shit DONE. While everybody else is acting like Scooby and Shaggy on the set of a George Romero movie, they swagger in, completely ignore or laugh off whatever the badguy is taunting them about, and do whatever they set out to do.

    Yamamoto I really find refreshing as a character, and would enjoy even in another series (I think he'd be a great lead, actually). He's affable, almost willfully ignorant but at the same time surprisingly canny, has internal struggles, knows the time for seriousness and for jokes, and when to ask for help. If he was the lead of Reborn and the series was about him having to choose and balance between becoming a pro-baseball player and a badass assassin Mafia boss, the series would be twenty times better.

    Hibari I appreciate if only because he takes this one idea and REALLY runs with it: the head of the school disciplinary committee. Attack a student? BITE TO DEATH. Look at him funny? BITE TO DEATH. Blow up the school with bombs? BITE TO DEATH. Sure he's a shallow character and something of a Johnny One Note, but it's nice to have a character that is said in the beginning of the manga, unequivocally, to be the "strongest student," to still carry that title when going up against mafia assassins, experimental robot murder machines, hitmen and all other nature of lame freaks that this series has.

    Facing down Gala Mosca? This hyped to hell war machine of death and destruction? BITE TO DEATH. Taken out in one shot. Why? The cast looks at it like it's a foregone conclusion: "because he's the strongest student." Utterly preposterous, but perhaps one of the few instances where the merging of every day school living and this weaksauce mafia world actually work for me.

    It helps that they aren't Tsuna, Gokudera, Chrome, Lambo, Ryohei, [He-Who-Will-Not-Be-Named], the lame side characters the author forgot she made, Mukuro's lame friends, Byakuran, Genkishi, Fran, the "Other" half of Varia, every fangless Vongola mafia mook, everyone from every other mafia in this series, or the girls. With a cast like that, I'll take the affable yet serious little-leaguer swordsman, over them. With a cast like that, I'll take the guy who can take out 500 Adelheids while yawning, over them.

    http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/2...pic5914591.png

    In a series of so much awful, you've gotta take what you can get.

    Edit: And no, No Maam, not really. FT takes the cake on that one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silence View Post
    There are some particularly bad plot issues now thanks to a Ten Years into the Future Time Travel arc, but really the manga's biggest problem is poorly introduced concepts and meandering character development. Like, remember in the beginning of Naruto how they explained the differences between Ninjutsu (like fireballs), Taijutsu (martial arts like Rock Lee uses), and Genjutsu (illusions) and how some people specialized in one thing or another and each had its own benefits and weaknesses? Like, genjutsu was only useful one-on-one, because a partner can attack you while you're trying it? Overusing ninjutsu can quickly deplete your chakra, taijutsu doesn't use chakra but you need to be up close to use it? There are other, better examples, but essentially when somebody said "that person is good at ninjutsu but bad at taijutsu" you knew what to expect from them. It narratively gave you a sense of whether someone was well matched against someone else.

    Reborn's "flame" system was shoehorned into the plot halfway through the manga to explain why characters that up until now just used bats and dynamite and fists were all of a sudden throwing fireballs around. There are 7 poorly defined "elements" and how they interact with each other or what they do to each other is more or less anyone's guess, because despite the occasional description of them whether they will actually work is almost always decided at random. As plot elements although they're always there, they're sometimes forgotten about, sometimes remembered.

    "Hey, shouldn't Ryohei's Sun Flame be healing his wounds every time he takes damage, making this new upgrade of his that converts pain into power safer to use?" "...No? It's just not working right now? HMM."
    "So Yamamoto's Rain Flame (derp) should be calming all these other flames, right? Because that's what it does." "No? It's not this time? HMM. I guess Mist has just got it like that."
    "Storm blows everything away, right?" "...I guess not??? LOOKS LIKE YOU LOSE AGAIN, GOKUDERA 0-13"

    They introduced, randomly, a pokemon battle sort of system in the extremely long and stupid future arc, and brought it back with them in the past because it would've seemed pretty dumb to have this huge arc where all of these upgrades were based off of genjutsu sea slugs and lightning oysters and sun peacocks (i am not kidding) and none of them carried over. And they do this sort of thing all the time: "HERE'S A NEW UPGRADE didn't you know about this the whole time, ha ha ha" I'm talking mostly about the fights mostly, but really even the writing is just really childish and predictable and annoying and dumb - heavy on exposition, on ALL of the good guys being useless, and chock full of "see look Tsuna REALLY is the second coming of the first hokage--I mean mob boss." Its new concepts and ideas fall flat on their face most of the time because they're all incredibly derivative and poorly established -- not given nearly enough attention.

    And also, impossible to believe.

    It's worse than Fairy Tail, and fighting HARD to be worse than Bleach. Of the three, I certainly dislike it the most, because at least Fairy Tail has Erza and Juvia and Luxus and Gildartz and Gazille, and Bleach has Squad 11 and Mayuri and Shunsui and Urahara and Yoruichi and a few other characters that you want to like, WANT to rescue from Bleach and put them in another, much better series. Reborn is just full of characters you grow to hate. Aggressively, furiously. And unfortunately, they're pretty much the entire main cast, save one or two.

    There's just a lot of things wrong with it in every way.

    Even though I like reborn despite all it's flaws, I just LOVE your rants silence.
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  18. #1418

    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    Quote Originally Posted by GEPPETTOSMONSTER View Post
    Even though I like reborn despite all it's flaws, I just LOVE your rants silence.
    It seems that you've been *puts dark glasses on* "silenced" *yeaaaaaaahhhhh*. OK, I'll stop.

  19. #1419
    is Stolen Silence's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    Quote Originally Posted by Big_Bad_Lith View Post
    I get the feeling this should be going in the reborn thread, but I guess I'll chime in anyway.

    What really grinds my gears is that they never fight two battles with the same power. Each arc sees the main characters matching up against the enemies, and tsuna sometimes gets an easy fight in the beginning and then a hard one in the end. But between each fight, everybody gets a new power. These powers often completely change their fighting style, and makes it so that you never get to see a character take their power and develop it, you only see them get new abilities arbitrarily.

    Compare to something like One Piece, which said "Luffy is made out of rubber. Let's see how far we can stretch that." and then goes through the usual stretch to reach, bouncing like a balloon, damage resistant, to using the snap-back properties of rubber for extra impact to using every damn body part as a weapon, to bouncing punches off the wall, to going limp like an octopus, then inflating like a balloon, vulcanizing, winding up in a coil, etc etc. It is just so good.

    Reborn gave Gokudera dynamite that he throws. He got able to direct them mid-flight. then he got an arm cannon. then he got a system that shoots multiple flame colors and intertwines them. then he got a magic cat and missiles or something. then he gets homing missiles and an exploding cat. It is just so frustrating to know that "oh, that power was kinda cool. too bad it'll be different next time." or "that sucked. Maybe he'll do some new tricks with it? oh wait nope just an entirely new thing for no reason."

    also the art is just so messy I don't even know sometimes. There's this page. http://www.mangareader.net/284-57486...apter-306.html

    What the hell sort of punch is that even? Is he punching the guy in the dick? in the stomach? in the chest? are we looking at this from top-down, right behind the puncher, 45 degree angle? it's just too messy.
    tee hee hee

    and YES, this point is very valid. I feel like I've been kicking around this issue for a while but you put it much better than I could. Reborn has the issue of having a too-large main cast. One Piece sometimes struggles with this too, but avoids the problem largely by not giving everyone a fight all the time. But in Reborn, because it has to show the fights of Tsuna and each of his Six (and a half) Guardians (minus Chrome, because she always loses in three panels), there's very little time for anything else. It's primary gimmick is "a new item upgrade per battle" but it just doesn't work, because you only see it the one time and don't get to see it get expanded upon or continue to prove its usefulness. Characters rarely use old moves thanks to having a new, completely fighting style changing NEW ITEM UPGRADE, which is a shame, because I think Yamamoto's fight with Squallo back in the Varia arc was one of the best fights in the series- but we aren't likely to see any of those awesome techniques again, against new foes.

    And yeah man, I totally agree: the art is sloppy in fights, especially Tsuna's. It had the problem that a lot of D. Grayman (what I read of it) used to have, where it was just hard to follow the flow of combat sometimes because there was so much on panel, but in Reborn you get those sort of effects all the time, and it's painful to see because it makes the panels look crowded and -- damn fugly, honestly.
    Last edited by Silence; May 5th, 2011 at 11:21 PM. Reason: And thanks, Geppetto. I'm sorry to bash on your series so much. I can't help it. :P
    Quote Originally Posted by Wagomu View Post
    There's a great lighthearted vibe around here, because no matter how serious we might get, we're all together because of some magical pirate.

  20. #1420

    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    Quote Originally Posted by Silence View Post
    And yeah man, I totally agree: the art is sloppy in fights, especially Tsuna's. It had the problem that a lot of D. Grayman (what I read of it) used to have, where it was just hard to follow the flow of combat sometimes because there was so much on panel, but in Reborn you get those sort of effects all the time, and it's painful to see because it makes the panels look crowded and -- damn fugly, honestly.
    And there's something that makes this even worse, which we beat to death against AlmostLegendary in the Reborn thread, is that when it's hard to tell what's happening because of this, no one (of the characters) gives a damn, but when, say, a mountain pops up behind a character (this literally happens and is as obvious as one would expect), the characters observing the fight due to whatever forced means Amano used to keep them sidelined announce the obvious. And it doesn't sound too bad until you're spoonfed the fact that this guy's glasses were pitch black 4 times in one chapter. Then something happens where you confused about what Amano is trying to show in a fight panel and you don't read a word from the other characters (in fact the example pic is later in the fight with the glasses dude). Add to this the long explanations for new powers we won't ever see again and it means most fights not involving Yamamoto, Hibari, or Mukuro are boring and drawn out (those three shut up and get shit done; if and when they have spectators, we usually just get a "wow, ____ is strong" intermittently).

    And since I'm feeling sadistic, this might spark No Maam's interest: the latest chapter ended with the a line about the newest villain having everything go his way because "everything was in the palm of his hand". Sound familiar? Dude uses illusions too, but to Reborn's credit it is the only current WSJ series that isn't/hasn't butchered itself with improper trollish use of illusions.


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