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Thread: The "Shueisha" Thread

  1. #5041

    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    Quote Originally Posted by gordanham View Post
    Wow. It is really impressive how I can say you are projecting, and it totally just goes in one ear and out the other. Again. I never said any of this. I even JUST SAID, "'time' is only being used as a marker." Again. The entire point of my question, was the difference between the condition of Jump. In both situations I never treated these hypothetical readers differently because of the time they were born.
    No, the point is... and FORGET the so-called imaginary differences of mentality you think they have...
    It's very plain and simple. I will break it down since you seem to have a very hard time grasping.

    1. One Piece did well in polls from the get-go.
    2. One Piece SOLD well in takoubon sales from the get-go.
    3. One Piece did better than some of the most popular titles of the time.
    4. Therefore, One Piece was not considered mediocre.
    5. By assuming it was mediocre, you are assuming all other titles (Jojo, Kenshin) were even worse.

    Do you get it? Do you now see your problem? Is that easy enough breakdown for you?

    It is pretty much exactly what you said.
    And that doesn't contradict what I said?
    Another fail for you.

    I am totally being agrressive right now, but if you seriously think this is a hate match, then yeah. You dead wrong.
    I love arguements like this, and I think they are fun. Especially when it is so easy to point out the others ignorance.
    Yeah, I know right, trying to label people names and getting a flamed response is totally the characteristics of an innocent victim. Passive-aggressive is soooo classy.

    Oh, and DO actually read this page of the thread, since your "ignorance" has been pointed out. Multiple times.

  2. #5042

    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    Quote Originally Posted by valiantt View Post
    I don't know how anyone who could consider One Piece to be mediocre after reading the first chapter. There was a lot to expect from an incredible set up like the first chapter and its popularity only soared after that.

    Go reread chapter 1 and compared it with other Jump titles to see how brilliant the build-up and potential promise of a "great adventure" this serie has to offer RIGHT at the start. There was obviously a lot of painstaking development and effort that went into this chapter which most Jump new-comers seem to neglect doing. I have yet to read another first chapter that managed to pull off nearly the same level of intriguge and promise of adventure as OP first chapter.

    By simply reading the first chapter, one can have a general idea about the author's talents and efforts. I think it is pretty clear Oda put a lot of planning into this chapter based on his comments on his Romance Dawn one shots prior to OP. The first chapter does give away a lot and one can make a general guess on how the serie will fare (though sometimes a serie can make a surprise turn for the better/worse).
    Yeah. I basically agree with Gliblord.
    First arcs are pretty cheese.
    And if you think they hold up, they do not.
    I can only appreciate them more now because of what Oda did with those elements later, not in the moment.
    And I think those first arcs are by far the biggest barriers for new US readers.
    I have gotten people into One Piece, and basically had to chant to them, "It gets better. It gets better," until Volume 4.

    Interesting how much adventure you got from that first chapter.
    How you feel about Skypea?
    I think it is the most "Aventure"-y arc, but a lotta people don't like it.
    It is like my #2 arc.

  3. #5043
    Mumblecore Gliblord's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    Quote Originally Posted by valiantt View Post
    Nah, not too much Alvida and Morgan. I am talking about the First Chapter. Higuma isn't much, but he was necessary for buiding up Shanks at an incredible level. Likewise, Alvida and Captain Morgan were pretty much there for essential world building and "flat" villains to toss at the shounen crowd to whet their appetite. If you started with a big drama heavy villain at first, then you pretty much are setting yourself up too fast and might end up with setting the expectations too high at first. Likewise, kids want adventure when they first start reading the serie. Why not start with something simple before jumping into drama heavy Gin/Kreig/Mihawk and Arlong?

    That way, you can still occasionally write simple stupid villains and get away with it while dropping in some heavy drama villains in the future (simply because you started with it first and set it up and saving your big guns for later).
    ...But that's no different from Bulge? The rock guy was the Alvida/Morgan and he was worldbuilding too during that. Then he geared towards the dark energy villains.

  4. #5044

    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    Quote Originally Posted by Gliblord View Post
    ...But that's no different from Bulge? The rock guy was the Alvida/Morgan and he was worldbuilding too during that. Then he geared towards the dark energy villains.
    Now this is entirely subjective, but I didn't find any of the characters in Buldge attractive or interesting, unlike Shanks and post-childhood Luffy.

  5. #5045
    Some Sorta Bumhead, Surely Maxy B's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    Shanks and Luffy had a super-good advantage, in that the first chapter that dealt with their young selves was basically a complete one-shot that just happened to have follow-ups (reminds of me of Dai's Great Adventure like that). So I guess the kind way to compare that to Barrage is that it doesn't take that amount of time on initial world-building. Sure it did Astro and the other guy (oof my brain's died), but we were just served all the stuff about his family and all that without enough backing. Past that point, yeah I'd compare the Alvida/Morgan early chapters to Barrage, but more in that without that first chapter of One Piece they wouldn't have worked, because we wouldn't be invested in Luffy. Same deal with Astro, except we never got that first chapter.

    ... Oh man, writing that just made me care about Barrage a whole lot more, as a case study more than anything else. When have I scheduled it for? I... haven't. Balls.

    EDIT RE: first arcs being cheese. Um... You ever tried reading a manga without the first arcs? Man, I can't dig it. Even ones that change up like Medaka and Reborn! wouldn't be up to par without all that early context.


  6. #5046

    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    Quote Originally Posted by Aohige_AP View Post
    1. One Piece did well in polls from the get-go.
    2. One Piece SOLD well in takoubon sales from the get-go.
    3. One Piece did better than some of the most popular titles of the time.
    4. Therefore, One Piece was not considered mediocre.
    5. By assuming it was mediocre, you are assuming all other titles (Jojo, Kenshin) were even worse.

    Do you get it? Do you now see your problem? Is that easy enough breakdown for you?

    Bwahhahaahahaha. What are you even talking about? Why are you even bringing this up? This was never even a part of the discussion.
    Yeah. I am not saying One Piece wasn't a success.
    I KNOW IT WAS A SUCCESS.
    The original question was if you think it would survive if it was barely started today.
    My answer was no.
    My reason was that it was mediocre.
    That is my opinion.
    It was a question asking about opinion.

    But apparently that is a wrong opinion to you. Because you know, we have to follow those opinion rules they taught us in school.
    Bwhahahahaha.

    But seriously, this has been an opinion question the entire time. Is that really why you got all fact crazy. I mean, you have the capability to understand people have different opinions than you, and guess what, their opinion is true. And so is your's. That's what an opinion is. Something like mediocrity isn't a fact. No matter what hyperbole you want to use to make it seem so.

  7. #5047

    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    Quote Originally Posted by gordanham View Post
    Yeah. I basically agree with Gliblord.
    First arcs are pretty cheese.
    And if you think they hold up, they do not.
    I can only appreciate them more now because of what Oda did with those elements later, not in the moment.
    And I think those first arcs are by far the biggest barriers for new US readers.
    I have gotten people into One Piece, and basically had to chant to them, "It gets better. It gets better," until Volume 4.

    Interesting how much adventure you got from that first chapter.
    How you feel about Skypea?
    I think it is the most "Aventure"-y arc, but a lotta people don't like it.
    It is like my #2 arc.
    Quote Originally Posted by valiantt View Post
    Nah, not too much Alvida and Morgan. I am talking about the First Chapter. Higuma isn't much, but he was necessary for buiding up Shanks at an incredible level. Likewise, Alvida and Captain Morgan were pretty much there for essential world building and "flat" villains to toss at the shounen crowd to whet their appetite. If you started with a big drama heavy villain at first, then you pretty much are setting yourself up too fast and might end up with setting the expectations too high at first. Likewise, kids want adventure when they first start reading the serie. Why not start with something simple before jumping into drama heavy Gin/Kreig/Mihawk and Arlong?

    That way, you can still occasionally write simple stupid villains and get away with it while dropping in some heavy drama villains in the future (simply because you started with it first and set it up and saving your big guns for later).
    Pretty much my response to that. You don't just start with one of your good villains right at the start of your story. That's playing your cards too quickly (in particular, Arlong in this case which I think is the point where OP's popular really soared, but I can be mistaken). Besides, they mostly exist for world building purposes (it wasn't STRICTLY Luffy verses Alvida/Morgan, it was an opportunity to showcase some pirates, Coby (ugh...), Zoro, marines, etc...). Also he focuses on developing character as well while not having them overshadowed by the villains at the start. Therefore, the initial villains are suppose to be "flat and unmemorable" because they are merely foils for demonstrating what the protagonists are capable of (basically punching bags to show off the protagonists talents as someone capable).

    Quote Originally Posted by Gliblord View Post
    ...But that's no different from Bulge? The rock guy was the Alvida/Morgan and he was worldbuilding too during that. Then he geared towards the dark energy villains.
    Bulge ACTUALLY had me interested in what villains Horikishi had in store due to one panel he had that showcased some of the aliens. Horikoshi had little to no problems with world building, but he had problems with creating a compelling story and character(s).

  8. #5048

    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    Quote Originally Posted by valiantt View Post
    Nah, not too much Alvida and Morgan. I am talking about the First Chapter. Higuma isn't much, but he was necessary for buiding up Shanks at an incredible level. Likewise, Alvida and Captain Morgan were pretty much there for essential world building and "flat" villains to toss at the shounen crowd to whet their appetite. If you started with a big drama heavy villain at first, then you pretty much are setting yourself up too fast and might end up with setting the expectations too high at first. Likewise, kids want adventure when they first start reading the serie. Why not start with something simple before jumping into drama heavy Gin/Kreig/Mihawk and Arlong?

    That way, you can still occasionally write simple stupid villains and get away with it while dropping in some heavy drama villains in the future (simply because you started with it first and set it up and saving your big guns for later).
    Ok. Yeah. Thank god people noticed it. But yeah. This basically entirely describes Barrage.
    I totally understand that the first chapter is a key difference, but yeah, the rest of it is pretty much copy-and-paste. (<---Look at that hyperbole )

  9. #5049

    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    Quote Originally Posted by gordanham View Post
    Bwahhahaahahaha. What are you even talking about? Why are you even bringing this up? This was never even a part of the discussion.
    Yeah. I am not saying One Piece wasn't a success.
    I KNOW IT WAS A SUCCESS.
    The original question was if you think it would survive if it was barely started today.
    My answer was no.
    My reason was that it was mediocre.
    That is my opinion.
    It was a question asking about opinion.

    But apparently that is a wrong opinion to you. Because you know, we have to follow those opinion rules they taught us in school.
    Bwhahahahaha.

    But seriously, this has been an opinion question the entire time. Is that really why you got all fact crazy. I mean, you have the capability to understand people have different opinions than you, and guess what, their opinion is true. And so is your's. That's what an opinion is. Something like mediocrity isn't a fact. No matter what hyperbole you want to use to make it seem so.
    It seems you just learned this word "projection" in school recently, but you do realize that by judging others based on your opinions is projection correct? You are assuming and judging about Japanese children by saying this.
    No, you're not having an opinion. Opinions are about your OWN view, not about assuming others' views.
    I did not voice my opinion (well, other than calling short-living series shitty). I am entirely talking about FACTS. You know, like Maxy mentioned. NUMBERS. FIGURES. Not how I feel about One Piece.
    I have a feeling you don't really know what "opinions" mean.

    1. What you are doing is ASSUMPTION based on your own personal opinion projected on others.
    2. What I'm doing is ASSUMPTION based on cold hard figures, projected observation on others.

    I'm sorry if you still can't understand that, but all I can say is, you've been very hypocritical this entire conversation. Starting with acting like you're a victim of flame, when you actually started with thinly veiled labelings. I guess you don't know what passive-aggressive is. Dude, come at me with all your venom, but don't pretend to be a victim!
    Last edited by Aohige_AP; February 18th, 2013 at 10:55 PM.

  10. #5050
    Mumblecore Gliblord's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    Quote Originally Posted by Aohige_AP View Post
    Now this is entirely subjective, but I didn't find any of the characters in Buldge attractive or interesting, unlike Shanks and post-childhood Luffy.
    Yeah, Luffy was awesome, and Astro was a bit of a goody goody, but not everybody can be Luffy

  11. #5051
    Some Sorta Bumhead, Surely Maxy B's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    Straw poll if anyone's interested: What'd be more interesting for me to talk about on FEV this august? It's a toss-up between Barrage/Oumagadoki Zoo and Bleach/Zombie Powder.

    Guys guys guys. Opinions are like arseholes. They taste a bit bitter, but if you lick 'em maybe the person'll go all ahegao.

    ... Wait, I don't think I have this right.


  12. #5052
    The Tetsuo Ishimaru of AP Gizmo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    Quote Originally Posted by valiantt View Post
    Pretty much my response to that. You don't just start with one of your good villains right at the start of your story. That's playing your cards too quickly (in particular, Arlong in this case which I think is the point where OP's popular really soared, but I can be mistaken). Besides, they mostly exist for world building purposes (it wasn't STRICTLY Luffy verses Alvida/Morgan, it was an opportunity to showcase some pirates, Coby (ugh...), Zoro, marines, etc...). Also he focuses on developing character as well while not having them overshadowed by the villains at the start. Therefore, the initial villains are suppose to be "flat and unmemorable" because they are merely foils for demonstrating what the protagonists are capable of (basically punching bags to show off the protagonists talents as someone capable).
    Don't really want to get into the popularity debate, but I gotta disagree with this notion.

    Nothing should be flat or unmemorable in a story. Or at least people shouldn't be writing anything in a story with that intent in mind. The characters in the story should serve a purpose and be interesting/fun to read about.

    What I do agree with is that if you're writing the story in this way, the initial villains should allow your main character to show off, both in terms of skill and personality, but that doesn't mean make the villain boring by comparison. It's a question of choosing what's important at the beginning and what you want to show off in terms of skills and abilities as a storyteller. And whether the beginning of One Piece is amazing or not is entirely subjective and something I don't want to argue about.

    That being said, I dunno if not starting off with your main villain/good villain right off the bat is a sign of a bad story. It's just something that I can't really name a super popular manga doing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightwing
    Stay focused, cause right now you have a decision to make. Are you a man perpetually looking back at what hes lost, or a man looking forward, to what he might become?

  13. #5053

    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxy B View Post
    Straw poll if anyone's interested: What'd be more interesting for me to talk about on FEV this august? It's a toss-up between Barrage/Oumagadoki Zoo and Bleach/Zombie Powder.

    Guys guys guys. Opinions are like arseholes. They taste a bit bitter, but if you lick 'em maybe the person'll go all ahegao.

    ... Wait, I don't think I have this right.
    It's not an opinion though.
    If one says "I think Maxy sleeps with his mom, because I sure do". That's not an opinion.
    That's an assumption based on projecting your own upon another.

    I really hate when people try to weasel out by saying "it's just my opinion!!!!". I get that shit all the time.
    Especially when they ignore facts and evidences, and think their "opinion" is going to cut the cake.

  14. #5054
    Some Sorta Bumhead, Surely Maxy B's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    His is an opinion, it's just been presented in a super leading way. And is quickly escalating into less of an opinion and more an impetus for conflict. I mean this'd literally be over ages ago if he'd just agreed to disagree and moved on.

    I think it's fine to say that it's just an opinion, as long as that person is open to differing opinions, and accepts how that opinion doesn't affect reality.

    God, where do I stand on this again?

    (side-note: worrying example, but very par for you, so I applaud all the same)


  15. #5055

    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    Quick little digression:
    Is there an archive of ToCs from before 2000?
    And any general archive of tankobun sale data?

  16. #5056

    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    for me Bulge was too slow for WSJ. there was a build up in the first chapter but after that there was no real follow up that can make kids pump up and invested in it. there was no real exciting emphasized on the main character weapon at all. it feel underwhelming. then the main character always said "family" this, "family" that - he's forcing the element of family too much to attract readers attention without actually writing something really interesting based on it. its like reading fairy tail, "friendship" are shove into readers face. and if i am not mistaken, even in this forum people start to complain how lackluster the second chapter was.

    about One Piece, 1st chapter was really good. but after that its not as good as the 1st one but it far better than Bulge's chapters. earlier chapter of One Piece was simple but its actually were done quite good. it had what WSJ readers like. off course people can say that it full of cliche, but Oda really did the right thing with it.

    and I wonder if anybody ever predict "Ant Arc" from just reading the 1st chapter of HxH or Urameshi is a son of Demon King from 1st chapter of YYH.

  17. #5057
    Some Sorta Bumhead, Surely Maxy B's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    TOC yes: http://www.biwa.ne.jp/~starman/ it is not in english
    Tank sales: no.


  18. #5058

    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    Sweet, thanks.
    And yea, figured tank data was a long shot.

  19. #5059

    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    is Ultra Red mentioned by Aohige before a manga by Kongo Banchou and Nanatsu Taizai's mangaka?

  20. #5060

    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    Quote Originally Posted by Aohige_AP View Post
    But you do realize that by judging others based on your opinions is projection correct? You are assuming and judging about Japanese children by saying this.
    No, you're not having an opinion.
    Um....I am pretty sure you can use google. But since it seems you are incapable of looking up a word before you know what it means.
    "Projecting: projecting false accusations, information"
    Again. In this case-scenario, the children are controlled variables.
    So yeah. You are incorrect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aohige_AP View Post
    Opinions are about your OWN view, not about assuming others' views.
    Quote Originally Posted by gordanham View Post
    The original question was if you think it would survive if it was barely started today.
    I really hope that I don't need to explain this one to you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aohige_AP View Post
    1. What you are doing is ASSUMPTION based on your own personal opinion
    Yeah. Duh. That is what I asked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aohige_AP View Post
    projected on others.
    And no
    Quote Originally Posted by Aohige_AP View Post
    2. What I'm doing is ASSUMPTION based on cold hard figures, projected observation on others.
    And no. You are treating all your opinions as cold hard facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aohige_AP View Post
    Starting with acting like you're a victim of flame, when you actually started with thinly veiled labelings. I guess you don't know what passive-aggressive is.
    MAN. I never even labeled you.....until King of Projecting....... I don't think that was thinly veiled. And why are you calling me passive-aggressive? I said I was being aggressive!

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