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Thread: The "Shueisha" Thread

  1. #5001

    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaronrules380 View Post
    ALso I realize that and that most mangaka aren't successful on their first series. Hence why I made it about how long since they started. My point was more along the lines of the fact that Jump doesn't seem to have much successful new talent, and I find it hard to believe that this generation of mangaka is just so much inferior to past ones. ALthough I do admit that I probably should have made it more like ten years
    I've repeated this over and over and over in this thread, but I guess I will repeat it again.
    They are not finding less talents these days anymore than in the past. The number of cancellations have always been about the same, even if you go back 20 years.
    It's always been around 10 titles spring up and getting canned every year, this has NOT INCREASED.

    In fact, 2012 was one of the most fruitful year Jump has ever seen in new talents sticking around.

  2. #5002

    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    My point wasn't about the number of new titles, it was about the number of new mangaka who are sticking around. And also that most of them aren't sticking around with battle manga anyways

  3. #5003
    Mumblecore Gliblord's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    What about series like Double Arts that were awesome

  4. #5004

    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    What exactly do you consider "new"?
    Most of the serializations that's sticking around are new artists, except Matsui.
    Few of them had a short failed serialization before, will that disqualify them as "new" to you?

    I see no difference in the people sticking around as five, ten, or even fifteen years ago.

    I really do think you people are just new to Jump in general, and assuming things are completely different about everything than when you weren't around.

  5. #5005

    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    On that note I never argued that the amount of new series or canned series has changed, because honestly to my understanding Jump has a system such that they pretty much always can and start the same number. It's a matter of how long individual series last on average before getting canned. And of newer series that are successful now, how many just slid by on the skin of their teeth during the first few chapters? I mean, I distinctly remember hearing Sket Dance had to claw its way out of the bottom rankings for example

  6. #5006

    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    Quote Originally Posted by Aohige_AP View Post
    I will explain to you exactly why this mindset is bullshit.
    If he claims "One Piece first chapters were shit, so it wouldn't fly today", that's basically saying that because it DID fly back in 1997 and snagged the top spots as soon as publication started, Rurouni Kenshin, Jojo's Bizzare Adventure, Houshin Engi, etc... all must be even SHITTIER.
    We all know that's not the case.
    Hhhmmmm...
    I don't expect you to be a mindreader or anything, but I had hoped people could see that time, in this situation, is simply being used as a marker for framing. My discussion isn't about the "time" it came out in at all. It is about the "condition" that Jump was in when it came out.
    As already previously stated, Jump is currently at its peak success with the number of units its combined series can sell surpassing 8 million. 5.5 million of those comes from battle manga alone.
    To my knowledge, that certainly isn't how Jump was when One Piece started, or even ever.
    I don't understand why it is hard to understand the concept of oversaturation.
    People boast all the time that they could eat "chocolate" or something for the rest of their life, and guess what, after a day, they are sick of it.
    Once people have something they like, and have integrated it appropriate to their lifestyle, be it weekly through jump, or just through a couple volumes a year, people don't need change.
    Not that people don't like change, it is just, when you are good with what you have, people don't tend to go out of their way for extra. It is a lot easier for someone else to be their filter for them. Ex. "You gotta read this manga or I seriously can't be your fried!"

    And besides that. I am also trying to point out the difference not just in the number of units sold, but the length of the current series themselves. There are currently 3 battle series past the 50 volume mark. People have literally grown never known a world without some of these series. It is a completely different climate.

    Aaron also been doing a good job about clarifying that THIS IS JUST ABOUT BATTLE MANGA. That is what this question is in regards to.

  7. #5007

    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    But you, BOTH OF YOU are completely ignoring battle manga that came and went in the past 10 years.

    I lived through Jump eras you speak of, instead of you just reading about it.
    Battle manga always came and went at the speed of light. Fucking always.
    Out of countless cancellations, some stick. One Piece stuck from the start, and no, it wasn't shitty like you claim.

    You know how many volumes of Reborn there is? 40 volumes.
    You know how many volumes of Fist of the North Star or Saint Seiya? Far less.
    In fact, what if I told you Nurarihyon no Mago went as long as the above two? Despite being mediocre and getting canned?

    Not given a fair chance my fucking ass.

  8. #5008

    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    Yeah. I can't see any reasonable explanation for all of the series arising that have gained popularity being non-battle manga when they're clearly still the most popular type based on the success of the big ones. I'm not saying it would be impossible for a new battle manga to emerge right now, simply that it would be far more difficult than in the past because of the lenght and popularity of the current huge battle manga. Oversaturation is a real thing, and its pretty easy to see how it can be applied to jump

  9. #5009

    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    no reasonable explanation? how about they are all suck?

  10. #5010

    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    Thank you, exactly.

  11. #5011

    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    And yes, we have series like Reborn and Nura.
    Things get a fair chance, but only after a certain threshhold. I'm not trying to talk about manga that get canned in 10 volumes, I'm talking about the ones that get canned in 2. Especially since the decision to can them probably came around the time they had at most one volume of material, since I have to imagine mangaka are given some advanced notice.

  12. #5012

    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    And again, vast majority of manga that gets canned in two volumes totally sucked.

    I'm sorry if your favorite manga got canned and you want to blame One Piece for it, but that's the truth.

  13. #5013

    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    Quote Originally Posted by Aohige_AP View Post
    But you, BOTH OF YOU are completely ignoring battle manga that came and went in the past 10 years.

    I lived through Jump eras you speak of, instead of you just reading about it.
    Battle manga always came and went at the speed of light. Fucking always.
    Out of countless cancellations, some stick. One Piece stuck from the start, and no, it wasn't shitty like you claim.

    You know how many volumes of Reborn there is? 40 volumes.
    You know how many volumes of Fist of the North Star or Saint Seiya? Far less.
    In fact, what if I told you Nurarihyon no Mago went as long as the above two? Despite being mediocre and getting canned?

    Not given a fair chance my fucking ass.
    It really seems like you are the ones ignoring things. We acknowledge that, and that the same number of series that have been been canned overall has remained the same.
    I think that it has been pretty clear, that what we are trying to say, is that, right now, this has probably been the hardest time ever for a battle manga or not.
    I mean, I love your long answers, but if you could simply say whether or not you agree with that, like "yes" or "no," that would be a nice addition.

  14. #5014

    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    I'm not saying they didn't. I'm saying that realistically it would be harder, even if only by a bit, given the way Jump's system operates. And honestly, I get the feeling that because of all the series that have been going on forever running now, a lot of new mangaka are probably making series with the intent of running them for a long time, for better or worse.
    And I still don't think ONe Piece had a particularly amazing beginning. Better than a lot of the new series, sure, but not by as much as I feel like you make it out to be. BUt hey, that's just my opinion

  15. #5015
    Mumblecore Gliblord's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    I really don't think they all sucked. Especially not Double Arts and Bulge. Both of those series died when series that were terrible from the very beginning like Reborn managed 40 volumes. Although, we are talking about the tastes of the main readership, of course

  16. #5016
    Some Sorta Bumhead, Surely Maxy B's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    Quote Originally Posted by Gliblord View Post
    I disagree, I think 20 volumes is an arbitrary goalpost
    Unless you're a romance manga in Jump, in which case it would be a new record.

    Also this is all getting mental and super subjective. Yes, if a series is canned at a low volume count it probably wasn't very good, if not in quality then in its ability to work the audience it's supposed to appeal to.

    Oh and back on the rookie artist thing, where do Akira Akatsuki or Saeki Shun fit in? Years of work on porn comics gives them a fanbase, even if it isn't transferable? Is Saeki a rookie? Was Akatsuki a rookie when M&Y came out? This is all exceedingly complicated.

    EDIT: There are plenty of reasons Barrage and Double Arts were flawed (not gonna say sucked, trying not to be like that), and... Ultimately it doesn't matter, does it. If the main audience doesn't like 'em, they die, and that means the flaws were too great. I like to acknowledge that stuff and enjoy things anyway. Double Arts had a horrible lack of direction after a while, and Barrage was over-designed, had a poor silhouette and a weapon that was super hard to make work (hence it changing. See also buso Renkin for another example of this


  17. #5017

    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    Yeah this is really getting nowhere.

  18. #5018

    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    LOL, if Bulge ran 20 years ago, it would have been canned then as well.
    It all comes down to, "There has to be other reasons why my favorite series got canned other than it sucked".

    Both of you. Go and pick up old issues of Jump, and see how many battle manga were getting canned EVERY. SINGLE. YEAR.

    Get back to me when you do.
    Or what, do you want me to spend the next couple of hours at work digging old shit and giving you factual information?

  19. #5019
    Mumblecore Gliblord's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    Quote Originally Posted by Aohige_AP View Post
    LOL, if Bulge ran 20 years ago, it would have been canned then as well.
    It all comes down to, "There has to be other reasons why my favorite series got canned other than it sucked".

    Both of you. Go and pick up old issues of Jump, and see how many battle manga were getting canned EVERY. SINGLE. YEAR.

    Get back to me when you do.
    Or what, do you want me to spend the next couple of hours at work digging old shit and giving you factual information?
    *I'm* not saying it wouldn't get canned 20 years ago, I'm just saying that doesn't mean it deserved it.

  20. #5020

    Default Re: Weekly Shonen Jump TOC

    That Reborn lasted longer than Saint Seiya and Fist of the North Star makes me sad. Gintama is longer than Dragon Ball since last year I think.

    Well, the top 2 lasted what they should have, Reborn was dragged out, so in the end It was the right thing to do.

    The editorial department seems to think that longer == better right now, I hope that AssClass goes with it's plan, that Bakuman planted the seeds of change, and that they learn from Naruto/Bleach/Reborn that a series needs to be good and memorable before long.

    I feel like Gintama and Medaka Box should start to wrap up, Gintama hasn't been particulary funny since the Kintama Arc, with a low on the Sword and Sheats arc, and Medaka even after recovering from bad and weird, shouldn't push it's luck.

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