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Thread: Nakama >>>>>>> "comrade"

  1. #181
    mr chew asian beaver Mog's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nakama >>>>>>> "comrade"

    Quote Originally Posted by A1ucard View Post
    I don't really see a problem because this could just be part of globalization.

    I'm Latino, and I often mix up English and Spanish words all the time(Spanglish?). There are also a lot of Spanish words in English that are kept untranslated and vise-versa. For example, Burrito literally means "Little Donkey" in English, but the word kept untranslated as Burrito. Logically, Anyone that is upset at the word nakama, should start calling burritos "little donkeys" if they want to remain consistent.

    Moreover, I see a lot of English words used in the Japanese raws in almost any Anime to date. Why is it OK for the Japanese to have American culture engraved into them and not have a little bit of theirs engraved into ours?
    ''Nakama'' is really used only by a specific type of fan, without any clearly discernible reason.

    Also, it's a children's comic from Japan.

    Why are you comparing it to cultural engravings and burritos.

  2. #182

    Default Re: Nakama >>>>>>> "comrade"

    Personally, I don't care too much about what scanlators use, because I know what "Nakama" means. If they leave it that way, I'll understand and figure out the context myself. If not, I really hope they got the context right, because I would consider it pretty lazy to misinterpret the meaning in light of obvious emotion.

  3. #183

    Default Re: Nakama >>>>>>> "comrade"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mog View Post
    ''Nakama'' is really used only by a specific type of fan, without any clearly discernible reason.

    Also, it's a very popular children's comic from Japan.

    Why are you comparing it to cultural engravings and burritos.
    Does it matter if it's from a children's comic from Japan? You're watching this children comic, and I doubt that you are a child. Literature and Art is one of the many methods of how cultural engravings begin. Manga and Anime is a Japanese art form that is being exported globally. Even if the show is intended for children, it's positive for children to learn other cultures and languages.

    Globalization can occur for many reasons, and it doesn't always have to make sense. (For example, I see Spanish speakers say Parquiar (pronounced parkiar which means to park) when estacionar is the real word to use.

    Point being is that since we are watching a Japanese product, it doesn't hurt that some of their culture gets engraved into ours especially since I hear a good amount of English spoken by the Japanese voice actors (which means our culture is being engraved into theirs). Therefore, it would be logical for fansubs and profession companies to give us a little bit of Japanese as well.

    Specifically, One Piece fansubbers believe that nakama is one of those words that can't truly be translated; thus they are enculterating this word to English speakers by leaving the word untranslated.

    It's true that other Anime fansubs translates the word to family, friends, comrade, etc depending on the circumstances, but perhaps One Piece will be the pioneer and other Anime fansubs will eventually keep it as nakama as well.
    Last edited by A1ucard; December 11th, 2007 at 01:20 PM.

  4. #184

    Default Re: Nakama >>>>>>> "comrade"

    I only know of one word that is anywhere near integrated into English. Sayonara, but we use tons of different languages for "good-bye", like adios. Oi also seems to be used a lot by fictional pirates in English.

  5. #185

    Default Re: Nakama >>>>>>> "comrade"

    Oi isn't just Japanese. I can excuse "Oi" because it isn't something obscure.

  6. #186
    mr chew asian beaver Mog's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nakama >>>>>>> "comrade"

    A1ucard, change that to ''very popular in Japan'' and your entire argument falls apart.

    But that's basically how it is. One Piece is not creating any major cultural impact anywhere, at least not to any degree it matters.

    And let's face it, we're just a bunch of nerds on the internet who like comics. This has nothing to do with ''culture''. It just seems to me like you're using that kind of fancy argumentation because you can't actually think of any sensible reason to leave the word untranslated.

  7. #187

    Default Re: Nakama >>>>>>> "comrade"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mog View Post
    A1ucard, change that to ''very popular in Japan'' and your entire argument falls apart.

    But that's basically how it is. One Piece is not creating any major cultural impact anywhere, at least not to any degree it matters.

    And let's face it, we're just a bunch of nerds on the internet who like comics. This has nothing to do with ''culture''. It just seems to me like you're using that kind of fancy argumentation because you can't actually think of any sensible reason to leave the word untranslated.
    Just because it's only popular in Japan (atm) doesn't mean that One Piece won't effect other Animes that is popular outside of Japan. This is why my argument doesn't fall short

    In my opinion, Japanese Anime, Manga, and Video Games are the mediums used for Japanese culture to be shared internationally. It only makes sense that their words will creep into our vocabulary just like ours have already creeped into theirs.

    If you think that this argument is not sensible, there is nothing more to argue. Perhaps this argument makes more sense to someone that is bilingual than a person that speaks only one language(not saying this is the case with you).

    In the end, the One Piece fansub community have already made up their mind and the word nakama and some other Japanese terms are being left untranslated. Whether this will carry one to other fansubs has yet to be seen.
    Last edited by A1ucard; December 11th, 2007 at 02:07 PM.

  8. #188
    Stowaway Ao Kiji's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nakama >>>>>>> "comrade"

    Ally works as well as comrade. Not to mention it's one of those words that works better in english if you change it depending on the sentence dude. Unlike Burrito, Nakama has a valid and sensible sounding english counterpart! It has tons of them!

    It's like saying YOSHA! and other common terms should be left in when ALRIGHT! Or YEAH! works just fine. Your argument makes no sense, because with a burrito, the meaning is confusing once translated while with something like nakama, the meaning becomes clear once you translate it. It's more confusing for it to be left in the original japanese. Not to mention OP isn't this distinctly Japanese series with cultural touches like riceballs and samurais and crap like that. Leaving Japanese in the dialogue just stands out as out of place, it doesn't add to the aesthetic of the series.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mog View Post
    Also, it's a children's comic from Japan.

    Why are you comparing it to cultural engravings and burritos.

  9. #189

    Default Re: Nakama >>>>>>> "comrade"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ao Kiji View Post
    Ally works as well as comrade. Not to mention it's one of those words that works better in english if you change it depending on the sentence dude. Unlike Burrito, Nakama has a valid and sensible sounding english counterpart! It has tons of them!
    Actually, Burrito litterally means Little Donkey. Nakama doesn't have a litteral translation and depending on the context, a different word is used. BTW "Valid and sensible sounding" is very subjective.

  10. #190
    Stowaway Ao Kiji's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nakama >>>>>>> "comrade"

    You're not understanding my point. Calling a food "little donkey" in english would be confusing. Using a foreign term like "nakama' would be equally confusing. Burrito should be untranslated BECAUSE it helps avoid confusion. Nakama SHOULD be translated for the same reason. Not to mention a term like "allies" or "fellows" is a perfectly valid translation of the word, it just doesn't sound coversational.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mog View Post
    Also, it's a children's comic from Japan.

    Why are you comparing it to cultural engravings and burritos.

  11. #191
    mr chew asian beaver Mog's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nakama >>>>>>> "comrade"

    A1ucard: What I mean by ''sensible'' is an argument that actually gives a solid reason for leaving this particular word untranslated instead of stating that doing so may not be bad thing because culture imports stuff all the time.

    Which is still a ridiculous allegory, if you ask me.

  12. #192
    King C Cap'n Carter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nakama >>>>>>> "comrade"

    And the term "burrito" tends to be used in a context where keeping it untranslated makes perfect sense, and translating it would do nothing for either party

    i.e. MEXICAN RESTAURANTS

    the bigot who thinks being an asshole is actually worth shit

  13. #193

    Default Re: Nakama >>>>>>> "comrade"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ao Kiji View Post
    You're not understanding my point. Calling a food "little donkey" in english would be confusing. Using a foreign term like "nakama' would be equally confusing. Burrito should be untranslated BECAUSE it helps avoid confusion. Nakama SHOULD be translated for the same reason. Not to mention a term like "allies" or "fellows" is a perfectly valid translation of the word, it just doesn't sound coversational.
    To tell you the truth, what I'm not understanding is why do you think Americans are going to be confused over Japanese terms being used in Anime when the Japanese have no problems using any American terms.

    I definately never get confused when an English word is used in Spanish and Vise-versa.

  14. #194

    Default Re: Nakama >>>>>>> "comrade"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mog View Post
    A1ucard: What I mean by ''sensible'' is an argument that actually gives a solid reason for leaving this particular word untranslated instead of stating that doing so may not be bad thing because culture imports stuff all the time.

    Which is still a ridiculous allegory, if you ask me.
    It's not ridiculous in my opinion, but if you must have another reason, I would say that the fact that the word doesn't have a literal translation and have to be substituted depending on the context is a good reason.

    Looks like I have a tough crowd tonight.

    edit: damn, sorry for the double post.

  15. #195
    Stowaway Ao Kiji's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nakama >>>>>>> "comrade"

    To tell you the truth, what I'm not understanding is why do you think Americans are going to be confused over Japanese terms being used in Anime when the Japanese have no problems using any American terms.
    Japan is not America. That's why. Japan is a culture that constantly exports language carry overs from other cultures, especially english. Most Japanese people have atleast a very basic understanding of english and can recognize the alphabet. Hell, they air american music videos on mtv in Japan! When's the last time you saw a Japanese music video air IN FULL JAPANESE on american mtv?

    It's a completely different culture where they don't mind the confusion created by foreign words being thrown into dialogue or for an aesthetic feel. In america, the same isn't true. The average america has no desire to be exposed to or learn foreign languages. "Put it all in english so I can understand it!" Is just fine with them. That we're getting anything left in a language besides english is great!
    And the term "burrito" tends to be used in a context where keeping it untranslated makes perfect sense, and translating it would do nothing for either party

    i.e. MEXICAN RESTAURANTS
    Comeon now! You know very well "Little Donkey" sounds like a tasty treat!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mog View Post
    Also, it's a children's comic from Japan.

    Why are you comparing it to cultural engravings and burritos.

  16. #196

    Default Re: Nakama >>>>>>> "comrade"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ao Kiji View Post
    Japan is not America. That's why. Japan is a culture that constantly exports language carry overs from other cultures, especially english. Most Japanese people have atleast a very basic understanding of english and can recognize the alphabet. Hell, they air american music videos on mtv in Japan! When's the last time you saw a Japanese music video air IN FULL JAPANESE on american mtv?

    It's a completely different culture where they don't mind the confusion created by foreign words being thrown into dialogue or for an aesthetic feel. In america, the same isn't true. The average america has no desire to be exposed to or learn foreign languages. "Put it all in english so I can understand it!" Is just fine with them. That we're getting anything left in a language besides english is great!
    You just gave a good reason why the French and Spanish attacks from Robin and Sanji should be translated to English instead of keeping them untranslated. Why did Funimation leave those words untranslated in the last episode if Americans are so ethnocentric?

    I'm pretty sure Ojos Fluer could have been translated into Eye Creep.

  17. #197

    Default Re: Nakama >>>>>>> "comrade"

    I'd say discussing this further would be about as frivolous as requesting Dora the Explorer to be fully translated into English.

    Banner by 8bit of Otakuboards. I'm using it here too because it's that awesome.

  18. #198

    Default Re: Nakama >>>>>>> "comrade"

    Quote Originally Posted by Aceburner View Post
    I'd say discussing this further would be about as frivolous as requesting Dora the Explorer to be fully translated into English.
    But the horse is still whole. I must beat it just a few more times before I'm satisfied.

  19. #199

    Default Re: Nakama >>>>>>> "comrade"

    Actually, Dora the Totally Non-Hispanic Explorer would be fun to see.
    "Muy bien! Great!"
    becomes:
    "Great! Great!"

    Dora is now a double-talker!

    Banner by 8bit of Otakuboards. I'm using it here too because it's that awesome.

  20. #200
    Zoro is NOT a Swiss Roll Rascuache's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nakama >>>>>>> "comrade"

    The use of Nakama in the subs doesn't bother me at all, the same goes for other words which warrant being used for translation. I don't see why people complain about it when they're actually watching something spoken in Japanese- it seems quite hypocritical to me. I find it a little cold when no Japanese terms are used at all.

    However I do find it infuriatingly annoying when people start treating these things as a law and refuse to understand that it can't be applied to everything. The idea of using untranslated words like Nakama for dubs or translations is pretty ridiculous (names are a different matter, I think). Translating them is fine, I just find it annoying when it's not translated proparly or when there's only one substitute for a word. It doesn't just have to be 'crewmate' or 'friend' or whatever, just pick what best suits the situation. I don't see why people get so wound up about deciding on what should be the definitive translation.

    As for the cultural argument, I completely agree with it... in other situations. I don't think it really applies to One Piece or anime. You can't really deny the fact there are millions of kids who love to say things like 'baka' simply because they think it makes them cute or quirky or whatever they imagine it to be, and it's only really these people who use such terms in real life. It's just a sort of fashion, I doubt it'll stay around long enough to become part of our culture.

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